upset when my sound ain't right

[reggie hall]

IaOTE="pedroims, post: 18665002, member: 106016"]Stage volume , you want to fill the stage with your sound, the volume of your rig can get really loud at the back of the sanctuary.

In a previous note you mentioned that you use an amp as monitor, is that correct? If so I don't understand what the issue is, you send the signal to mixer using the DI and the amp as your monitor.[/QUOTE]
I brought my keyboard amp to use as a monitor and that sucker volume was so low i couldn't hear anything

 

[MNAirHead]

Maybe these are contributing to your issues?
Most churches I know of use IEM's and don't have amps on stage... the 3 worship centers at my church follow this approach.

understanding IEM/DI is almost required to be an active church player

----

The "why not use an amp" has to do with bouncy hard surface rooms tuned to a male speaking voice. IF you don't have the amp making noise--- only the mains create the sound--- the delay and phase issues are solved.

The sound guy in a worship setting (usually) has a complex job of getting everyone determine what "good" and "just right volume" mean.

Rooms are tuned to different frequencies... commonly they will have low end response issues...

 

[s0c9]

understanding IEM/DI is almost required to be an active church player

That was my point.. and in today's high tech world, it's not limited to churches either. My secular band is mostly IEM, with only one wedge on stage (darn guitar players who need that amp-in-the-room thing )!
Musicians need to adjust.. or get left behind.

 

[JimmyM]

That was my point.. and in today's high tech world, it's not limited to churches either. My secular band is mostly IEM, with only one wedge on stage (darn guitar players who need that amp-in-the-room thing )!
Musicians need to adjust.. or get left behind.

No they don't. There are PLENTY of bands who still use amps, and nobody complains about bad sound with them, either. Bad sound is completely unrelated to whether the band uses amps or not. I've seen enough ampless bands with bad sound and enough amp'ed bands with good sound to know that for a fact. Whatever happened to the idea that a band should be comfortable with their sound onstage? We should sacrifice our comfort so the sound tech is more comfortable? I don't think so.

That said, if a band pays me enough to go ampless, I'll do it

 

[MNAirHead]

No they don't. There are PLENTY of bands who still use amps, and nobody complains about bad sound with them, either. Bad sound is completely unrelated to whether the band uses amps or not. I've seen enough ampless bands with bad sound and enough amp'ed bands with good sound to know that for a fact.

Whatever happened to the idea that a band should be comfortable with their sound onstage? We should sacrifice our comfort so the sound tech is more comfortable? I don't think so.

That said, if a band pays me enough to go ampless, I'll do it

Jimmy,

Respectfully -- your note is referencing a band -- not church group with varied choices, preferences etc. In essence the sound guy has a room of varied tastes and demographics. Imagine mixing sound for a group that includes people who hate music... those that listen to metallica cranked to 10... yanni... orchestras.. country and taylor swift.

Yes a mixed audience with varied preferences will complain about amps and sound levels.

The "real deciding" person(s) commonly will be the most vocal in the audience (good or bad)...

I had a staff position doing sound in a brick lined hexagon with domed ceiling - was a totally different beast than running a bar, vineyard, concert, auditorium, amusement park etc.

----

I will note that once I got comfortable playing IEM/DI with a complex Hillsong type narration/click/back -- the venues and paychecks became more stable and larger.

That being said - I do enjoy a big cranking amp (if it's allowed)

I've never had the request "hey dude... turn it up and play 2x as much"

 

[fishdreams]

That was my point.. and in today's high tech world, it's not limited to churches either. My secular band is mostly IEM, with only one wedge on stage (darn guitar players who need that amp-in-the-room thing )!
Musicians need to adjust.. or get left behind.

Musicians need to maintain their self-respect. Musicians make music how they choose, good or bad, take it or leave it. Just like I am not telling a sound guy how to do his job, (s)he shall not tell me how to do mine.

 

[s0c9]

No they don't. There are PLENTY of bands who still use amps, and nobody complains about bad sound with them, either. Bad sound is completely unrelated to whether the band uses amps or not. I've seen enough ampless bands with bad sound and enough amp'ed bands with good sound to know that for a fact. Whatever happened to the idea that a band should be comfortable with their sound onstage? We should sacrifice our comfort so the sound tech is more comfortable? I don't think so.

That said, if a band pays me enough to go ampless, I'll do it

Big tangent there Jimmy.. Who said anything about sound quality? I was referring to using IEM's and DI's not sound quality.

 

[reggie hall]

No they don't. There are PLENTY of bands who still use amps, and nobody complains about bad sound with them, either. Bad sound is completely unrelated to whether the band uses amps or not. I've seen enough ampless bands with bad sound and enough amp'ed bands with good sound to know that for a fact. Whatever happened to the idea that a band should be comfortable with their sound onstage? We should sacrifice our comfort so the sound tech is more comfortable? I don't think so.

That said, if a band pays me enough to go ampless, I'll do it

Couldn't have said it better

 

[s0c9]

Musicians need to maintain their self-respect. Musicians make music how they choose, good or bad, take it or leave it. Just like I am not telling a sound guy how to do his job, (s)he shall not tell me how to do mine.

EVERYONE needs to maintain self-respect. If a musician feels that they can't do that with their current environment (as per OP) move on. Simple.
No need to get sanctimonious and self-righteous over it..
Life is too short..

 

[lfmn16]

Big tangent there Jimmy.. Who said anything about sound quality? I was referring to using IEM's and DI's not sound quality.

Talk about tangent. The OP comes in and the soundman doesn't have his monitor on, won't look at him, and when the OP talks to him, he doesn't get it. And we still have people trying to blame the OP. He just wants to hear himself.

It's pretty easy to tell who runs sound on TB. Maybe we should start a forum for BASS players.

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy,

Respectfully -- your note is referencing a band -- not church group with varied choices, preferences etc. In essence the sound guy has a room of varied tastes and demographics. Imagine mixing sound for a group that includes people who hate music... those that listen to metallica cranked to 10... yanni... orchestras.. country and taylor swift.

Yes a mixed audience with varied preferences will complain about amps and sound levels.

The "real deciding" person(s) commonly will be the most vocal in the audience (good or bad)...

I had a staff position doing sound in a brick lined hexagon with domed ceiling - was a totally different beast than running a bar, vineyard, concert, auditorium, amusement park etc.

If a musician is too loud for the room and audience, that has nothing to do with using amps, although one could make the argument that taking their amps away will make them turn down But take me, for example...I like an amp onstage because I hate how most monitors sound for bass. Monitors are almost always voiced to make vocals sound good, not bass. But I don't ever turn them up much louder than I can make a B-15 go cleanly, and that's regardless of whether I use a tiny little combo or my SVT/810. I see no reason I should have to suffer because someone else can't control themselves.

 

[lfmn16]

If a musician is too loud for the room and audience, that has nothing to do with using amps, although one could make the argument that taking their amps away will make them turn down But take me, for example...I like an amp onstage because I hate how most monitors sound for bass. Monitors are almost always voiced to make vocals sound good, not bass. But I don't ever turn them up much louder than I can make a B-15 go cleanly, and that's regardless of whether I use a tiny little combo or my SVT/810. I see no reason I should have to suffer because someone else can't control themselves.

+1

Now granted I don't play in church, but I play with an SVT and 8X10 cabinet, my guitar player plays with a Marshall stack and we get asked to turn up way more than we get asked to turn down. And I can tell you what we do when we get asked to turn down ... we turn down. No volume problems.

 

[chadds]

Talk about tangent. The OP comes in and the soundman doesn't have his monitor on, won't look at him, and when the OP talks to him, he doesn't get it. And we still have people trying to blame the OP. He just wants to hear himself.

It's pretty easy to tell who runs sound on TB. Maybe we should start a forum for BASS players.

Laugh Out Loud!

 

[Geri O]

No they don't. There are PLENTY of bands who still use amps, and nobody complains about bad sound with them, either. Bad sound is completely unrelated to whether the band uses amps or not. I've seen enough ampless bands with bad sound and enough amp'ed bands with good sound to know that for a fact. Whatever happened to the idea that a band should be comfortable with their sound onstage? We should sacrifice our comfort so the sound tech is more comfortable? I don't think so.

That said, if a band pays me enough to go ampless, I'll do it

Just to be sure, my initial post spent a lot of time admonishing all parties involved in not being able to come up with a plan for making the mix work. Being both a careered PA guy and now a bassist, I feel that I'm fairly qualified to point out the problems when faced with these situations.

In my PA days, I NEVER told players to turn down their stage volume, unless, say, a Marshall 100watt was decimating the vocal sound and that's been twice in my lifetime (and not in church). I might not like what I was dealing with, but if I could make it work and keep a band happy, that's what it's about. Frankly, it takes an experienced and seasoned sound guy to realize that this is the goal in the end. One issue with volunteers or inexperienced with some audio guys is doing everything possible to make a loud stage work before running up there and telling the players to turn down.

 

[reggie hall]

Talk about tangent. The OP comes in and the soundman doesn't have his monitor on, won't look at him, and when the OP talks to him, he doesn't get it. And we still have people trying to blame the OP. He just wants to hear himself.

It's pretty easy to tell who runs sound on TB. Maybe we should start a forum for BASS players.

Ding ding ding

 

[s0c9]

Talk about tangent. The OP comes in and the soundman doesn't have his monitor on, won't look at him, and when the OP talks to him, he doesn't get it. And we still have people trying to blame the OP. He just wants to hear himself.

It's pretty easy to tell who runs sound on TB. Maybe we should start a forum for BASS players.

Who's "blaming" the OP.. ?? Stop reading things into a post that aren't there! You're overthinking it and making assumptions that don't exist.
Some folks here work both sides of the stage and thus are a little more attuned to reality..

 

[JimmyM]

Who's "blaming" the OP.. ?? Stop reading things into a post that aren't there! You're overthinking it and making assumptions that don't exist.
Some folks here work both sides of the stage and thus are a little more attuned to reality..

Sez you

 

[s0c9]

Sez you

yep..

 

[two fingers]

I can actually see both sides of this debate being that I am a sound guy as well as a bass player.

Here's the thing. The physics of huge PA speakers is very different from a bass rig. They are tuned different. So, if you run a very scooped sound to your bass cab, it may sound great to your ears on stage. But that very same signal may be AWFUL to work with out front.

I constantly read/hear that "A good sound guy could take any signal and fit it into a mix". That's total BS. If you send me all boom, or all highs and boom, there's nothing I can do to clean it up out front. I need MIDS to get you through the mix out front. (low mids to be more precise)

The flatter the signal the easier my job will be out front. I can do whatever I like with it.

Short version. "Your sound" may be amazing in your bedroom, in the practice spot, or even on the stage right beside your head. But it may be total crap through a front of house mix.

Here's what I would suggest.
1) Always run a 1/4" cable from the DI box to your rig. It will act the same way your bass cable does. That way you can have "your sound" on stage regardless of what is out front.
2) Talk to the guy nicely and see what you can work out. My church sound guy took some negotiating, but we were able to squeeze two bass channels into the mix. One comes straight off the bass (DI box) and the other comes from my rig. He blends them these days. I love it in my ears and he loves it out front.
3) BE FLEXIBLE on "your sound" on stage. If he says it's too boomy or too scooped, work with him and throw some mids into it so he can use it out front. I ALWAYS ask ANY sound guy I am working with if he needs anything.
4) If none of that works, trick him with speaker level DI. If he is using a Countryman or something similar, it will run speaker level. What that means is that you run a speaker cable from your rig to the DI, and then another from the DI to your speaker cab. That way, he has no idea that you aren't running straight off the bass. And your whole sound goes to the board. All he will notice is a mic cable coming from a DI to the snake. (Trust me on this.) The down side to this is if "your sound" is too boomy or too scooped, he will call you out during sound check and tell you he needs you to clean it up. That may blow your cover when he walks on stage to see what changed.

All that being said, the easiest way to get it done is to understand that your tone may stink out front even thought it sounds like heaven through your cab. You have to be a little flexible even if you have spend the price of a good used car on gear.

Best of luck with this.

 

[two fingers]

Sez you

Ha! Yes, sound guys can be almost as hard headed as bass players. I'm both. But it does give us some insight into the situation from both angles.

Physics is what it is. "Your sound" may stink out front. And, no, the old saying is not true. "Any GOOD sound guy can take ANY bass signal and make it sound amazing out front." It is simply not the case. `The physics of PA cabs and bass cabs are rarely similar. The physics of most stages as opposed to the whole room are usually worlds apart.

Both sides have to give a little and act like grownups. If either takes the "I am the bass player/sound guy and YOU WILL do it the way I want it done" and the whole process breaks down. You have a common interest. Act like it.

Either that, or your decades of experience mean I need to shut up.

I'm sure one of the two is true.