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upset when my sound ain't right
- Thread starter reggie hall
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- sound
This is the kind of post where I make everyone mad. But I speak based on observations from working in the pro audio business and consulting with churches on their various sound issues. As well as the perspective of a bassist in a large church, as well as sev real other regular gigging situations....
Several years ago, I stopped this consulting part of the job for two reasons: (A) I was tired of the backlash from telling folks that the problems they were suffering from were 99% operator error or bad choices of equipment based on in-experience and snake-oil salesmen. From Apple store techs who ASSumed that because they could replace cracked iPhone screens, they were automatically transformed into expert sound guys. Or the plumber/accountant/physician/car salesman that was drafted by the pastor or elders into "running sound" at church and not at all happy about it. In both cases, when I show up, demonstrate that the church gear is working fine and suggest that they should seek some training in mixing sound, that suggestion is usually met with such indignation that those meetings were usually over in 15 minutes, and with me witnessing most un-Christian-like behavior and treatment directed at me at the mere mention of operator error. A common question I would ask is "You worked hard and trained for your occupation and so did I. What would happen if I walked into your world on Sunday morning and tried to fix toilets, do peoples' taxes, or knit broken bones?". I've seen people turn red with fury from being asked that question.
And (B), from the musician side, trying to explain, even with pictures and audio samples of why instrument amps are destructive to the sound when played too loud (80% of the time). If you are honest with yourself, you can imagine the backlash I would get from that discussion, even if you, like them, think I'm full of crap. Of course, the need to use the amps is there because of bad monitoring situations, either from lousy gear, inexperienced operators, or in most every case, both. Completely understandable.
So what we have is:
Inexperienced sound operators unable or unwilling to learn.
Musicians unwilling to unable to try using less volume or no amps.
Church leaders making bad decisions in building ornate, but unsuitable spaces, buying gear and unwilling to train or hire potential sound operators and spend the money it takes to implement proper audio and monitoring systems (I'm sorry, singing the praises of cheap IEMs is fine, but ultimately unsatisfying to use and disposed of. I wouldn't say it if I had't seen it happen for years).
Twenty or so years ago, big production churches were broadcasting their church services and other churches were seeing the glorious lights and the huge orchestras and choirs and praise teams and decided that they wanted to do what they saw the big churches doing. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that the big churches had the budget to hire the right people and implement the proper equipment to make such a production (and those of you inclined to do so, please start another thread about your opinion of how these churches spend their money, that's been beaten to death. It's common sense and knowledge that some churches are better stewards of the Lord's money than others, any further discussion of that here is pointless and not the point of this thread). So now, the landscape is literally littered with churches with a big investment in sound, lighting, and broadcast (not always wise investments, to boot) and no one in-house willing or capable of learning to operate it properly. And a lot of time, a poorly-designed space with no provisions for good sound acoustics, stage provisions, and accommodations for lighting and video screens (how many times have you seen a screen encroaching on a speaker cluster?).
And on the players' side, we have players taking the club or other performing habits and practices into churches and becoming frustrated with requests for low stage volume or to use IEMs. Okay, and really, I get sick and tired of hearing "I want to sound good". Who doesn't, ya know? Who doesn't want to sound good?.
So to sum it up...As has become the case in the modern society, we all want what we what and we refuse to compromise or look at ourselves to solve a problem. So these problems will continue and not improve and in fact, I seriously believe will get worse as time goes by. Where does it lead? Much like society today, it remains to be seen...
I am always happy to be proved wrong. DEAD series about that.
Disclaimer: I play bass and operate sound on a volunteer basis at my church. I'm more than happy to. It's part of my faith and my desire to serve. My church has two or three professionals well-versed in audio, lighting, video, broadcast and live streaming. The actual operation on Sundays and Wednesdays is done by volunteers to have blessed us with their willingness to serve and be trained for the job. I've even taken a couple of these volunteers on pro sound gigs with us and they've had the most fun doing so. At one time, I was considered for a full-time position on the production team, but I passed because I was playing a lot. We have a sizable, but carefully-considered investment in production systems, including an awesome Aviom system and makes amps totally un-necessary (except the guitar amps in iso-boxes and the Hammond B3 Leslie).
No doubt we have issues as any large church will but I'm so blessed to be a part of a wonderful ministry and play as much as I can stand. Oh, yeah, and mix from time to time...
Several years ago, I stopped this consulting part of the job for two reasons: (A) I was tired of the backlash from telling folks that the problems they were suffering from were 99% operator error or bad choices of equipment based on in-experience and snake-oil salesmen. From Apple store techs who ASSumed that because they could replace cracked iPhone screens, they were automatically transformed into expert sound guys. Or the plumber/accountant/physician/car salesman that was drafted by the pastor or elders into "running sound" at church and not at all happy about it. In both cases, when I show up, demonstrate that the church gear is working fine and suggest that they should seek some training in mixing sound, that suggestion is usually met with such indignation that those meetings were usually over in 15 minutes, and with me witnessing most un-Christian-like behavior and treatment directed at me at the mere mention of operator error. A common question I would ask is "You worked hard and trained for your occupation and so did I. What would happen if I walked into your world on Sunday morning and tried to fix toilets, do peoples' taxes, or knit broken bones?". I've seen people turn red with fury from being asked that question.
And (B), from the musician side, trying to explain, even with pictures and audio samples of why instrument amps are destructive to the sound when played too loud (80% of the time). If you are honest with yourself, you can imagine the backlash I would get from that discussion, even if you, like them, think I'm full of crap. Of course, the need to use the amps is there because of bad monitoring situations, either from lousy gear, inexperienced operators, or in most every case, both. Completely understandable.
So what we have is:
Inexperienced sound operators unable or unwilling to learn.
Musicians unwilling to unable to try using less volume or no amps.
Church leaders making bad decisions in building ornate, but unsuitable spaces, buying gear and unwilling to train or hire potential sound operators and spend the money it takes to implement proper audio and monitoring systems (I'm sorry, singing the praises of cheap IEMs is fine, but ultimately unsatisfying to use and disposed of. I wouldn't say it if I had't seen it happen for years).
Twenty or so years ago, big production churches were broadcasting their church services and other churches were seeing the glorious lights and the huge orchestras and choirs and praise teams and decided that they wanted to do what they saw the big churches doing. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that the big churches had the budget to hire the right people and implement the proper equipment to make such a production (and those of you inclined to do so, please start another thread about your opinion of how these churches spend their money, that's been beaten to death. It's common sense and knowledge that some churches are better stewards of the Lord's money than others, any further discussion of that here is pointless and not the point of this thread). So now, the landscape is literally littered with churches with a big investment in sound, lighting, and broadcast (not always wise investments, to boot) and no one in-house willing or capable of learning to operate it properly. And a lot of time, a poorly-designed space with no provisions for good sound acoustics, stage provisions, and accommodations for lighting and video screens (how many times have you seen a screen encroaching on a speaker cluster?).
And on the players' side, we have players taking the club or other performing habits and practices into churches and becoming frustrated with requests for low stage volume or to use IEMs. Okay, and really, I get sick and tired of hearing "I want to sound good". Who doesn't, ya know? Who doesn't want to sound good?.
So to sum it up...As has become the case in the modern society, we all want what we what and we refuse to compromise or look at ourselves to solve a problem. So these problems will continue and not improve and in fact, I seriously believe will get worse as time goes by. Where does it lead? Much like society today, it remains to be seen...
I am always happy to be proved wrong. DEAD series about that.
Disclaimer: I play bass and operate sound on a volunteer basis at my church. I'm more than happy to. It's part of my faith and my desire to serve. My church has two or three professionals well-versed in audio, lighting, video, broadcast and live streaming. The actual operation on Sundays and Wednesdays is done by volunteers to have blessed us with their willingness to serve and be trained for the job. I've even taken a couple of these volunteers on pro sound gigs with us and they've had the most fun doing so. At one time, I was considered for a full-time position on the production team, but I passed because I was playing a lot. We have a sizable, but carefully-considered investment in production systems, including an awesome Aviom system and makes amps totally un-necessary (except the guitar amps in iso-boxes and the Hammond B3 Leslie).
No doubt we have issues as any large church will but I'm so blessed to be a part of a wonderful ministry and play as much as I can stand. Oh, yeah, and mix from time to time...
A lot of churches have a permanent Bass Amp/Cab set up that matches that venue/PA/song choices. Being a constant, the sound guys learn to work-around it.
None are 'my tone'.... but at least I can hear myself & not mess up the sound for others.
None are 'my tone'.... but at least I can hear myself & not mess up the sound for others.
Put some time into developing good relationships with those who are shaping your sound. If it's a really big church, put a big amount of time into it.
Listen to what they are trying to achieve, get to know their goals. Help the whole 'thing' to get better, by understanding the whole thing and the people who are shaping it.
I'm another one if those people who have spent years and years frustrated, but week in, week out working(imperfectly) to improve the worship experience for the people in my church family. It's relational work.
But if it is just a means of procuring $$ to you, and using your own gear to achieve your own tone, then what I'm describing has very little relevance to your 'gig' problems.
Listen to what they are trying to achieve, get to know their goals. Help the whole 'thing' to get better, by understanding the whole thing and the people who are shaping it.
I'm another one if those people who have spent years and years frustrated, but week in, week out working(imperfectly) to improve the worship experience for the people in my church family. It's relational work.
But if it is just a means of procuring $$ to you, and using your own gear to achieve your own tone, then what I'm describing has very little relevance to your 'gig' problems.
I play in two services one in english and the spanish service. I english they use the monitors. In that case i connect my pedals to my amp and use the xlr of the amp to go to the DI with the amp volume very low the sound guy loves the tube emulator of my combo amp. The spanish leader dont use the di at all straight amp sound. I got my amp and my sound, they have their control of the sound everybody happy!
I never have a problem hearing myself, but until I took matters in my own hands nobody else heard me unless they wore earbuds.
My church has an Avion IEM system that everyone in the band uses. However, the choir and the organist try to hear us either through the PA mains in a boomy sanctuary or through a crappy stage monitor. The drummer plays an electronic kit.
You can imagine that even if the band played well together it would rarely sync up with the choir or organ.
I spent $90 to buy a used Ampeg 108 combo with a single 8" speaker to run through. I even take a headphone out from the electronic drum brain into the auxiliary mix input of the Ampeg.
I run it at 30-40% volume.
Guess what? The choir and organ synced up and the services are groovin'! And no complaints from the soundman.
My church has an Avion IEM system that everyone in the band uses. However, the choir and the organist try to hear us either through the PA mains in a boomy sanctuary or through a crappy stage monitor. The drummer plays an electronic kit.
You can imagine that even if the band played well together it would rarely sync up with the choir or organ.
I spent $90 to buy a used Ampeg 108 combo with a single 8" speaker to run through. I even take a headphone out from the electronic drum brain into the auxiliary mix input of the Ampeg.
I run it at 30-40% volume.
Guess what? The choir and organ synced up and the services are groovin'! And no complaints from the soundman.
I've worked both sides of the console...
Church facilities and volume preferences make it really tough to produce a group pleasing sound. As a bassist, they're probably going to ask you to play quieter so they don't have bounce back timing issues and or wonky room tuning going on.
There was a brilliant suggestion for a Rolls PM351... if playing churches, this is almost a must in every gigging bassist pedal board. This will allow you to control your own vocal and bass monitor level... (if they use active monitors OR iem)
In a church context, 90% of the time, your bass will sound totally different at different parts of the room.... it's a strange strange church issue.
IN defense of the sound guys -- many places will have untrained volunteers, equipment that is not properly dialed in, rooms that have delay and acoustics issues... trying to keep the uniform sound level around 100-110db... and bass guys chasing an illusive tone.
Church facilities and volume preferences make it really tough to produce a group pleasing sound. As a bassist, they're probably going to ask you to play quieter so they don't have bounce back timing issues and or wonky room tuning going on.
There was a brilliant suggestion for a Rolls PM351... if playing churches, this is almost a must in every gigging bassist pedal board. This will allow you to control your own vocal and bass monitor level... (if they use active monitors OR iem)
In a church context, 90% of the time, your bass will sound totally different at different parts of the room.... it's a strange strange church issue.
IN defense of the sound guys -- many places will have untrained volunteers, equipment that is not properly dialed in, rooms that have delay and acoustics issues... trying to keep the uniform sound level around 100-110db... and bass guys chasing an illusive tone.
Thanks for all your input, i decided its just not worth the trouble trying to play there, i been a musician in the church since i was 7 (mainly keyboard) and never had these type of problems, i went down this road multiple times with this church i refuse to keep leaving church pissed off,i love music i love playing and when the music part dont go right it really bothers me.
Used a house di direct at each of my first three shows and have been asked a dozen other times over the years. It's not uncommon.
Have you tried in ear monitors? My church did away with live rigs on stage and I had to equip myself and learn to use the in ear monitors and use my phone to control my monitor mix. I try to use my skills as a bassist to make things work. Im being asked to play (for free) and it is a huge honor for me and something I take seriously because I truly believe in what I am doing. There have been times when I have had NO monitor and had to try to hear myself from behind the PA. I do it because I believe it's important, I love it, and it's for God.
I just recently started using them, theyre not the best but it works and might be worth looking into in the future.
Oh that's easy, too much stage noise. It doesn't seem like a big deal to a bassist on stage and it sounds a lot better to us often but it is a problem for the overall sound that is being presented in the congregation. Less onstage noise means more control in the hands of the soundguy so he can use the mixer to make everything sound good. If you cant play without an onstage amp then you are limiting yourself. I understand if you like the tone you get from your rig but sometimes especially as bassists, we have to be team players. I used to use a Sansamp and now I use an Avalon U5 for DI and it sounds awesome. Find a DI box/tone shaper that will make you sound good.
Not a problem at all, as long as everyone can agree on a stage volume that works for everyone involved.
And I thought I was the only one,had this problem,with the keyboard being too loud? I played at a Church,where they decided to run all the musicians,thru the house system. I never could hear myself? Then person on the keyboard,had control of the volume,and cranked it to the point,that everyone said the bass was too loud? Most of them,thought I didn't know what I was talking about,that the bass was coming from the keyboard? Didn't have anyone on the control board that knew,how to balance everything in the mix. So to the keep the peace,I decided to step down as the bass player there. Then I decided to leave and go somewhere else.
s0c9
Supporting Member
Maybe these are contributing to your issues?
Most churches I know of use IEM's and don't have amps on stage... the 3 worship centers at my church follow this approach.
Stage volume , you want to fill the stage with your sound, the volume of your rig can get really loud at the back of the sanctuary.
In a previous note you mentioned that you use an amp as monitor, is that correct? If so I don't understand what the issue is, you send the signal to mixer using the DI and the amp as your monitor.
