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upset when my sound ain't right
- Thread starter reggie hall
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Being a doormat isn't a virtue. There is a difference between pride and self respect.
I'm very happy to use a DI and a decent monitor - on the condition that the tech people are competent, and I know it. If I am remotely concerned then I use my amp and they can have a DI too, but not instead.
It's not ego, it's to do with doing my job properly. A drummer or sax player can always hear their own output, but keys and bass are pretty impossible to play of you cannot hear yourself. The big annoyance, and it happens often with poor sound ops is that they tweak the channel gains - often, I note, to get the fader positions similar. I've watched them do this two handed - dropping input gain off, while moving the channel fader from about an inch to the bottom, to the more usual ¾ or so of full travel. They forget that the monitors go down - being driven from the preamp not the channel fader output.
Our keys player is a devil for never playing the soundcheck at the level he plays when songs get busy. I guess the red lights on the desk come on, and they drop his gain - removing the vital part from my monitor. When he uses his amp, I can always hear him, even if the monitors drop. With IEMs that I usually use, at worst I have to drop out for a bar or two to select his channel in my mixer and turn him up.
So the question when asked to DI without amps is - do you trust them?
It's not ego, it's to do with doing my job properly. A drummer or sax player can always hear their own output, but keys and bass are pretty impossible to play of you cannot hear yourself. The big annoyance, and it happens often with poor sound ops is that they tweak the channel gains - often, I note, to get the fader positions similar. I've watched them do this two handed - dropping input gain off, while moving the channel fader from about an inch to the bottom, to the more usual ¾ or so of full travel. They forget that the monitors go down - being driven from the preamp not the channel fader output.
Our keys player is a devil for never playing the soundcheck at the level he plays when songs get busy. I guess the red lights on the desk come on, and they drop his gain - removing the vital part from my monitor. When he uses his amp, I can always hear him, even if the monitors drop. With IEMs that I usually use, at worst I have to drop out for a bar or two to select his channel in my mixer and turn him up.
So the question when asked to DI without amps is - do you trust them?
wmhill
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[QUOTE="s0c9, post: 18662227, member: 25nothojg my experience of playing at church over the last 12+ yrs, the "tech" are not experienced, mostly young volunteers who are cutting their teeth at church. I've long ago given up worrying about how I sound at church. I haven't used an amp at church in at least 5 yrs, so as long as I can hear myself via Aviom/Behringer monitors, I'm fine with whatever the techs do out front.. I have no control over it anyway. Besides, isn't pride a sin?[/QUOTE]Ah, that sound guy!!
The guy isnt young but he clearly knows nothing about pa and we been down this road before
wmhill
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I'm willing to bet that they need you more than you need them.
I have only found one solution to this problem.
The problem is three-fold:
1. Hear yourself
2. Let sound guy control FOH.
3. Not blow away the other players on the stage.
My solution is the Rolls PM351 Personal Monitor Mixer. It allows you to independently balance the main mix and your signal in headphones, so you don't need an amp on stage.
It is a shame the FOH guy doesn't know how to get a good bass sound in the mains or in the monitors for the other musicians, but that is on him. It's not your job to provide a good bass sound for the other musicians or the house.
The problem is three-fold:
1. Hear yourself
2. Let sound guy control FOH.
3. Not blow away the other players on the stage.
My solution is the Rolls PM351 Personal Monitor Mixer. It allows you to independently balance the main mix and your signal in headphones, so you don't need an amp on stage.
It is a shame the FOH guy doesn't know how to get a good bass sound in the mains or in the monitors for the other musicians, but that is on him. It's not your job to provide a good bass sound for the other musicians or the house.
It is pretty apparent to me that Bass is a very important part of this type of music. Possibly even more than other types of music. Based on that alone the sound guy should respect the importance of the bass.
"People who don't understand the importance of bass put out an inferior product" You can quote me on that.
"People who don't understand the importance of bass put out an inferior product" You can quote me on that.
I have played at a lot of churches over the years and have been through exactly what you describe. It is very frustrating. I solved the problem though. I ended up making a pedal board with a Tech 21 VT bass as my "amp tone." It sounds great with in ear monitor or through a powered speaker as a personal stage monitor/ small combo amp. I like the sound so much that I ended up selling my actual bass amp. It just started collecting dust. If I fill in at a church for the first time, I almost always get compliments on my tone from both the resident band and sound techs. Maybe you should try something like I did. It allows you to get your tone anywhere....of course, it may not sound the same out front, if the sound tech is clueless.
And the Rolls personal monitor is a great idea too!
Bass bleeds really badly into all the other mics on stage, such that it's a boomy indistinct mess.
Solution for bass players.
- identify what's too loud that stops you hearing yourself.
- keep everyone else on stage really quiet too
- small but decent bass cab for you, aimed at your ears.
- get sound guy to HPF everyone else except bass and kick drum @300hz to stop this bleed/ clean up low freqs.
- use less compression on mics (as it makes bleed worse IME).
If you must use monitors
- identify what's too loud that stops you hearing yourself.
- position yourself away from drums & other amps.
- ask for two monitors = Fuller sound.
- get it REALLY cranked on stage from the start so you know you can hear yourself.
Alternative, only play the weeks a different sound guy is on. That fixed my issues with one PITA sound guy.
Solution for bass players.
- identify what's too loud that stops you hearing yourself.
- keep everyone else on stage really quiet too
- small but decent bass cab for you, aimed at your ears.
- get sound guy to HPF everyone else except bass and kick drum @300hz to stop this bleed/ clean up low freqs.
- use less compression on mics (as it makes bleed worse IME).
If you must use monitors
- identify what's too loud that stops you hearing yourself.
- position yourself away from drums & other amps.
- ask for two monitors = Fuller sound.
- get it REALLY cranked on stage from the start so you know you can hear yourself.
Alternative, only play the weeks a different sound guy is on. That fixed my issues with one PITA sound guy.
I can see that. It's a shame when a Sound guy messes up a potentially good thing.
Is it possible to aim your rig sideways and hang back a little bit? That may appease him and let you keep a rig on stage.
In 27 years of playing live music, I've never been asked to only use DI and no live rig. So yeah.
If the church has a musical director, he or she is probably your best chance of resolving this type of issue.
In my experience, it's common for churches to insist on a DI without an amp and to have poor or non-existent monitoring. Unfortunately many worship spaces have acoustic properties that are poorly suited for electronic instruments and drums. In order to improve the sound and intelligibility for the congregation, the musicians are asked to perform without amps or monitors. Often it is possible to hear one's instrument clearly, but the sound is delayed because it bounces of the back wall of the hall before heading to your ears. The best solution is to design worship spaces with appropriate acoustic properties. Unfortunately acoustics are often made secondary to visual design or not considered at all.
You have to decide what's important to you and where to take a stand.
A compact amp or a monitor may be a solution. Unfortunately the level most people want to monitor themselves at will degrade the sound for the congregation. If this occurs, the music director and audio tech will be less sympathetic to your needs. Chances are someone has already demonstrated that a monitor or amp will cause problems, by insisting on too much personal volume. Thus if you can talk them into letting you try an amp or monitor, you will need to use restraint to keep the volume at the absolute lowest level possible.
If the audio tech can't figure out how to set the monitor and a small kickback amp aimed at your face is not acceptable, you could consider using earbuds. A lot of TalkBass members seem happy using one of these Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products PM351 Personal Monitor System
IMHO, If you are not digging the gig and they are totally unwilling to work with you...time to walk.
In my experience, it's common for churches to insist on a DI without an amp and to have poor or non-existent monitoring. Unfortunately many worship spaces have acoustic properties that are poorly suited for electronic instruments and drums. In order to improve the sound and intelligibility for the congregation, the musicians are asked to perform without amps or monitors. Often it is possible to hear one's instrument clearly, but the sound is delayed because it bounces of the back wall of the hall before heading to your ears. The best solution is to design worship spaces with appropriate acoustic properties. Unfortunately acoustics are often made secondary to visual design or not considered at all.
You have to decide what's important to you and where to take a stand.
A compact amp or a monitor may be a solution. Unfortunately the level most people want to monitor themselves at will degrade the sound for the congregation. If this occurs, the music director and audio tech will be less sympathetic to your needs. Chances are someone has already demonstrated that a monitor or amp will cause problems, by insisting on too much personal volume. Thus if you can talk them into letting you try an amp or monitor, you will need to use restraint to keep the volume at the absolute lowest level possible.
If the audio tech can't figure out how to set the monitor and a small kickback amp aimed at your face is not acceptable, you could consider using earbuds. A lot of TalkBass members seem happy using one of these Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products PM351 Personal Monitor System
IMHO, If you are not digging the gig and they are totally unwilling to work with you...time to walk.
Using a DI box is a totally standard and expected skill for a bass player. And church music should be about praise and worship, not your ego or a chance to show off your fancy equipment. I've been in that situation many times, and I am always happy to plug into the provided DI with a smile on my face and no questions asked.
That said, I'm totally on your side in this particular case.And the reason why is that the sound guy did not hold up his end of the bargain. He did not meet his standard and expected duty of making sure each instrument could be heard. If you can't hear yourself, then you can't give a good performance.
I'd recommend to buy an inexpensive DI and practice with it at home, so that you aren't caught off guard next time you're asked to do this (because I guarantee you, you will be in this situation again and again). I also think you would be absolutely in the right to bring a small combo amp, to use as a personal monitor so you can be heard on stage. Totally on your side in this one.
Praise & worship would be curtailed severely if you couldn't hear your minister. Correct? Your worship band kicks it to inspire more worship i.e. Getting out of your head from the week's travails and getting in a place to hang wit de Lawd wit my peeps.
(You could always stay home and pray by yourself.) So no ego is involved when you and your band want to hear themselves.Using a DI is a skill but if the monitors can't reproduce your actual bass tone then go home or use your amp. You and the engineer should be working together to provide the best experience for the congregation. This needs to be clarified. Neither of you is in charge. What would Jesus do? I know. He'd mic your amp because he was a respecter of people manifesting their best. He said pray to your Father who is in Heaven not go through this DI.
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