IMO the economy, although improved, is still not in full recovery. And I agree...lots of good basses at good prices on TB. So if you are concerned with an expensive instrument losing value go with a pre-owned. If you decide to sell it later you take as big of a hit.
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Used bases aren't selling well.
- Thread starter darwin-bass
- Start date
I am one of "those guys" except I have no delusions about breaking even (making a profit???? Come on!). I have purchased and sold over 60 instruments in the last couple of years but only one or two were purchased with an eye toward flipping and perhaps making a few bucks. My experience is limited, however, to the $1,600 - $4,600 range boutiques with most at about $2,500. The below $1,500 market may be a completely different animal and I have zero experience there.
What happens is it becomes a little bit like a portfolio. You make a little money on one here or there and you clearly remember those. Most you don't. Most you hope to get what you paid not counting shipping and fees etc. but you usually take some level of a hit. The market is too efficient. With just a bit of research you can find any and all previous sales of an individual bass on TB and people are generally reluctant to pay more than what the seller paid to buy it. History of comparable sales are plenty these days and if you don't have them because your bass is from a less known or popular luthier then it generally only hurts you as a seller, doesn't help. I look at the net collective "hits" as a "rental fee" I pay to explore and try all of these amazing basses for a while. The market has been declining over the past few years I have been doing this so that has impacted my experience, no doubt.
I don't know of anyone whom does this trying to make money as the primary objective. The "dealer" types are out there and they may be able to pull it off but I don't think their buying criteria are driven by something they want to own to play. Most of us are exploring and trying different axes we think will be fun then we try to get as good of a deal as we can on it. Some basses we stay attached to after the two week afterglow has faded and others we find ourselves picking up less and less. So we trade and sell them.
In short, I, like you, remain very skeptical of "players" making money with any consistency on their bass deals particularly after fees and shipping.
This. I remember not too terribly many years ago when I could do a generic category search of "bass guitars" and look throuthrough literally all of them in a matter of minutes.
Reasons for difficulties selling aside, this whole discussion is probably all just more reason to buy gear to use it not try to flip it.
Start with mine please!This makes me want to run out and buy a bunch of used basses on credit. To hell with the cost....
+1
Median household income in the US is not only lower today than it was right before the Great Financial Crisis, it's lower than it was in 2000.
The % of Americans who are working dropped to around 63% right after the crisis, and hasn't recovered. The unemployment rate has come down primarily because people are leaving the work force.
I definitely wouldn't want to be selling right now. My music man and fender would only bring about 60% of what I paid for them and I bought them used.
I am in strong agreement that if you want an item to sell, you need to price it to sell ... that involves some homework and study of both the product and the market, then selecting both a selling price and the appropriate market to list the item ...
.. however, (if your example is hypothetical, lets look at it) asking $1k for a 2004 American Series Jazz bass IS, in my opinion, totally unreasonable, if you want the bass to sell ... that bass sold brand new in '04 in the $650-750+ range, and in my opinion that is a very appropriate range to list that bass IF the primary reason for listing is to SELL the bass, and simply not testing the market ... that '04 AmSeries is a less sought after era, and if bought new the seller is in essence recouping his original expenditure (yes, I do understand the time value of money), and if seller has purchased the '04 used prior to sale for more $$ than that, he purchased poorly ... this is a perfect example of what I eluded to in post #61 ... an '04 AmSeries should not be expected to sell used at a price comparable (even higher in some cases) as a 2012-2014 American Standard (which would be better suited to carry the $1k tag) ... this is a lack of understanding both the market, and the item they are trying to sell ...
.. all JMHO as always ...
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Burwabit
Likes guitars that tune good and firm feelin women
I disagree. Don't want to start a side bar, but I'll say that I am trying to sell my Jazz on thegearpage.net too. Talkbass is WAY better to navigate and use. Gearpage feels like going back to dark ages to me, personally.
The term "FIRM" doesnt have the same weight on a "for sale" thread these days. I noticed used bass flipping becoming alot more difficult a year or two ago...sellers getting testy in for sale threads as if every buyer were out there to screw them out of money. At the end of the day, even in MINT condition a used bass is a used bass and in this economy in particular people have to be realistic.
I think you are low with $650 for a new American Jazz Bass in 2004 -- I think somewhere around 1k plus tax is closer. Also, that era is only less sought after by some on TB; In the real world no one can tell the difference... That said, I see a lot of basses in the TB classifieds that are overpriced.
Easy. Several factors here. (None will be popular here.)
1) Young musicians aren't trying to make money. They're trying to make it big or play whatever "core" music they like. Anything else is a "sell out". As such, many of them have no money. They are paying to play as it is. The school of thought when I was coming up was play something marketable and toss out some originals when you can. That way you make some money while writing.
2) There simply aren't as many people taking up stringed instruments in my view. When I was in high school (mid to late 80s) I would venture a guess that of the 100 or so males in my class, 75 of them had a guitar or bass and more than half of them knew how to play it somewhat. Seriously, I would guess that roughly 40% of the males in my class played guitar or bass. Not so today. Kid next door just graduated high school in a class of around 200. He only knows a couple of guitar players and no bass players. Anecdotal? Yes. Indicative of a shift? Also yes. In the early to mid 90s I kept my bass student roster full at 28-32 students and even had a waiting list at times. The guy teaching bass at the same store I taught at is a guitar and bass teacher. He feels great if he has 5 bass students and maxes out at around 18 combining guitar and bass altogether. And it's not like there are 15 bass teachers here. He is one of only a couple.
3) Live music scenes throughout the country (with rare exception) are taking a dive compared to the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. During those 25 years you could play as much as you wanted for pretty good money. These days not so much. Less money being payed out means less money to spend on gear for many of us.
4) The "music middle class" is dwindling much like other sectors of the population. A good percentage of us can afford (or simply prefer) only cheap basses. Some of us can afford $10,000 basses. And in the middle there is less and less market every year. I would argue that for every $700 Ibanez or $800 Carvin customer, there are more than a dozen $100-$200 Squier or Dean customers. So, if you have a bass listed at $500-$1,000, even if that is a fair price, there just isn't enough market to support them used along with all the other new bases in that price range.
5) Quality at lower price points has risen at a steady pace for years. These days you can actually get a playable bass for $100-200 new. Not my preference but plenty good enough for many. So, many of the new bassists who haven't been privy to our bass snobbery will reckon "Why would I buy that guy's used Stingray for $750 when I can buy an OLP that looks just like it for a couple hundred?" And then the OLP actually plays OK to them further stamping out the mid priced used market. Cuz many of them don't care what name is on the head stock.
6) The market is flooded in general. I have a CL app on my phone set to search "bass" in the musical instruments CL sections of half a dozen neighboring areas. At any given time I can find dozens of bases and amps for sale right here within a couple hour's drive. And most of my area is rural. Add to that web sites, TB classifieds, other forum classifieds, local Bargain Hunter/Trader mags, and at any given point there are literally thousands and thousands of basses for me to choose from at any given price point. The odds of someone landing on your bass here at TB are pretty slim. Your bass for sale here has a one in a million shot at being seen by someone in the market. It's like trying to find a needle in a pile of needles.
Short version: Most of the people who want a $500-$1,500 bass (new or used) have one and don't want/need another one. There are less and less of those people every year due to both economic factors and the simple fact that there are less people (particularly as a percentage of the population) wanting to take up guitar or bass. I wouldn't buy anything unless I were planning on keeping it for a while.
(All that being said, the majority of my gear, including two purchases very recently, has come from TBers..... two basses, a combo and matching cab, one head, and another cab. But I am not typical when set against the entire bass buying market.)
Sorry for the long post.
1) Young musicians aren't trying to make money. They're trying to make it big or play whatever "core" music they like. Anything else is a "sell out". As such, many of them have no money. They are paying to play as it is. The school of thought when I was coming up was play something marketable and toss out some originals when you can. That way you make some money while writing.
2) There simply aren't as many people taking up stringed instruments in my view. When I was in high school (mid to late 80s) I would venture a guess that of the 100 or so males in my class, 75 of them had a guitar or bass and more than half of them knew how to play it somewhat. Seriously, I would guess that roughly 40% of the males in my class played guitar or bass. Not so today. Kid next door just graduated high school in a class of around 200. He only knows a couple of guitar players and no bass players. Anecdotal? Yes. Indicative of a shift? Also yes. In the early to mid 90s I kept my bass student roster full at 28-32 students and even had a waiting list at times. The guy teaching bass at the same store I taught at is a guitar and bass teacher. He feels great if he has 5 bass students and maxes out at around 18 combining guitar and bass altogether. And it's not like there are 15 bass teachers here. He is one of only a couple.
3) Live music scenes throughout the country (with rare exception) are taking a dive compared to the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. During those 25 years you could play as much as you wanted for pretty good money. These days not so much. Less money being payed out means less money to spend on gear for many of us.
4) The "music middle class" is dwindling much like other sectors of the population. A good percentage of us can afford (or simply prefer) only cheap basses. Some of us can afford $10,000 basses. And in the middle there is less and less market every year. I would argue that for every $700 Ibanez or $800 Carvin customer, there are more than a dozen $100-$200 Squier or Dean customers. So, if you have a bass listed at $500-$1,000, even if that is a fair price, there just isn't enough market to support them used along with all the other new bases in that price range.
5) Quality at lower price points has risen at a steady pace for years. These days you can actually get a playable bass for $100-200 new. Not my preference but plenty good enough for many. So, many of the new bassists who haven't been privy to our bass snobbery will reckon "Why would I buy that guy's used Stingray for $750 when I can buy an OLP that looks just like it for a couple hundred?" And then the OLP actually plays OK to them further stamping out the mid priced used market. Cuz many of them don't care what name is on the head stock.
6) The market is flooded in general. I have a CL app on my phone set to search "bass" in the musical instruments CL sections of half a dozen neighboring areas. At any given time I can find dozens of bases and amps for sale right here within a couple hour's drive. And most of my area is rural. Add to that web sites, TB classifieds, other forum classifieds, local Bargain Hunter/Trader mags, and at any given point there are literally thousands and thousands of basses for me to choose from at any given price point. The odds of someone landing on your bass here at TB are pretty slim. Your bass for sale here has a one in a million shot at being seen by someone in the market. It's like trying to find a needle in a pile of needles.
Short version: Most of the people who want a $500-$1,500 bass (new or used) have one and don't want/need another one. There are less and less of those people every year due to both economic factors and the simple fact that there are less people (particularly as a percentage of the population) wanting to take up guitar or bass. I wouldn't buy anything unless I were planning on keeping it for a while.
(All that being said, the majority of my gear, including two purchases very recently, has come from TBers..... two basses, a combo and matching cab, one head, and another cab. But I am not typical when set against the entire bass buying market.)
Sorry for the long post.
.. then we can agree to disagree ..
...an uninformed market is for sure responsible for many of the escalated sale prices I see paid on Ebay, many do not know the difference as you say ... but ignorance in a buyer is no reason to gouge in my opinion ... I guess that is a choice we all need to make individually
.. also if you revisit my post, I gave a range of $650-750+ ... the sellers option to select from within will be determined by their level of desire to sell quickly ..
.. thanks for your comment and sharing your opinion ...
Which means they could be had for $650, which is totally wrong -- even $750.00 is low; that is the range for an American Jazz bass in 1994, not 2004. There may be people out there that got them for that, but that would be rare. The going rate was somewhere around 1k in 2004. And no one on TB could tell the difference in a blind test in a 2004, 2008, or 2014 American Jazz Bass if they were all properly setup the same way. I have no problem if you disagree
Im pretty much on the same page with you. Most of the gear Ive bought is in the $100-$1000. I always buy used and generally pay 50%-60% of the new price; sometimes a little more, sometimes less. When its time to sell something, I deal through craigslist, because no shipping or fees and i typically ask for what the item is going for on ebay. I've made money flipping stuff, but when i lose $100 bucks on a nice instrument i got to play for a year or two I'm not really too pissed off about it.
I will say this though, the used market is a little weird and its probably because of the price increases of the big companies in the past few years. For example, weren't the Fender AVRIs something like $1600 a few years ago? this meant used ones were selling for around 1000, and i remember seeing a few go for even less. But now the new ones are $2200; so someone who payed that much asks for $1300 which is fair, but a lot of people are still trying to pay under $1000 for an AVRI.
I used to see a bunch of American standard Jazz basses, and Strats for 500-600 on craigslist. But now that they're ~$1300 new, sellers want 900, while buyers still remember when they could haggle one down to 550.
One thought is that it has gotten harder and harder to sell musical instruments on eBay, resulting in flooding alternative markets such as the Craig.
