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using dirt in live situations

C

christoph h.

Mar 26, 2001
1,064
14
Germany
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#1
Hi Justin!

I'm having a problem getting a tone I like in a band I'm playing with. Having heard the the great sounds you got with Imarobot and NIN I hope you can help me with this.

(EDIT: Sorry, this got über-long - but it really has been an odysee for me!!!)

Here's some more background info: I recently joined a "rock" band - two guitars, drums and bass. They tune to Eb and sometimes drop the Eb to Db. There are many melodic parts, but a lot of the time the bass and rhythm guitar are very closely related. I play both pick and fingerstyle.

I can get a working clean sound easily, but that doesn't match my "sonic vision" for this band at all. I really want two levels: a slightly dirty ("gritty") base sound and a second "mayhem" layer for the "big" sections.

Unfortunately I'm totally failing at getting these sounds. I tried many different pedals and types of "dirt": fuzz (bass big muff), overdrive (xotic bb preamp, boss sd1, tech21 vt bass) and distortion (aguilar agro, Tech21 XXL). I've used these with and without clean blend (xotic blender), tweeter on/off, lots of mids in EQ, turn highs up/turn them down (Markbass amp), roll of some lows, etc. I've used different basses (jazz bass, g&l, stingray...)

Using the MUFF for the mayhem resulted in me totally disappearing, while using a clean blend really only lets you hear the clean signal. Using the XXL made the bass prone to feedback and totally loose focus and articulation on faster lines.

Using the character knob of the VT Bass below 11 makes me totally disappear, too, regardless of what I additionally run into it. As a standalone overdrive of the VT Bass seems to be very "dense". So far, the Agro for the basic sound and the BB for added mayhem seem to work best.

I'm also losing a lot of nuance in the mix: It doesn't seem to matter whether I use the Agro, the BB or the VT Bass for basic dirt - once I arrive at a setting that lets me hear myself and is "obviously dirty", they basically sound the same... very frustrating! I'd really like to get something "crunchy", similar to what you got in the NIN Lights In The Sky video
()

I can approximate that sound in the homestudio, but in rehearsals, nothing works! I have even tried copying the VT Bass setting on your NIN pictures, but no matter how I've worked the EQ on the amp or the pedal(s), I didn't get a sound I liked. Cutting through, yes - great sound - no. :(

Is it really the fate of dirty bass sounds that all the nuances get swallowed? They sit in the mix differently and often better, but all the real character seems to get drowned out by guitars and cymbals.

OK, this is getting very, very long, but maybe this illustrates the point that I've tried a lot and I'm really out of ideas!

Thanks a lot for reading this and thanks for your time!

-Christoph
 
#3
distortion can be finicky in a mix sometimes. levels, tones...it can get a bit difficult working yourself into a mix with distortion in comparison to a clean sound. i know you asked justin this, but i might offer a little advice to you as well...instead of going from pedal to pedal, why don't you pick one or two pedals to concentrate on for now and really work at getting a good sound out of them? i think any of the pedals you have are capable of getting great sounds. but if you bounce around too much, you might be tempted to give up on a pedal that just needs a couple tweaks to work really well. then once you get used to them, try other ones and you'll have a better frame of reference for what you need.
 
#4
JimmyM said:
i know you asked justin this, but i might offer a little advice to you as well...
Click to expand...
Every input is appreciated!
instead of going from pedal to pedal, why don't you pick one or two pedals to concentrate on for now and really work at getting a good sound out of them?
Click to expand...
Well, I know it sounded like I jumped from pedal to pedal, but I've spent several rehearsals with each pedal, sometimes taking one combination with me several times, sometimes making shootouts.
 
#6
Might have to do with your amp situation. What are you running amp/cab wise? I had trouble getting drives I really dug for a while but have recently found amps I like that have very distinct sounds and have been selecting amps for specific gigs as opposed to certain OD pedals. I find that I'm much happier w the results and the amp overdrives sound much more organic. In my case, I used to have a Mark Bass LMII (still keep as backup), now I choose from a Mesa 400+, 1978 Acoustic 450 or a '68 Bassman (people diss the bass sounds from this but I love it, plus it handles pedals great)

Also, different amps handle different "mayhem" pedals differently. For me, the go to gnarly fuzz is my Malekko. I found the bass muff to be a bit more subdued.

For the record, I've got a vt bass pedal I used to love but amp ODs have more or less taken it's place. Still gets some love occasionally though.

Hope some part of that helps!
 
#7
I am REALLY curious if your two guitarists have sucked up all the spectrum, man.

What's up with their rigs? Are they using modern/scooped tones w/ enormous bottom? I'm worried that they haven't left room for you.

What's up with your amp? Aren't those Markbass amps pretty clean? I think you need something inherently ugly. What's the power and speaker complement? I get the feeling that for you, having some cab in the mix that has an old 15" speaker in it might get that low, combined with some midrange "poke", that brings things out. You know, like an old Acoustic or Sunn 2x15 or something. Just theorizing.

So hard to diagnose without hearing it, to be honest. Can you link us a recording?

JMJ
 
#8
I have been running a Markbass LM2 head into a Markbass 4x10 (not mine) with the tweeter OFF. I have a feeling that the cab sounds crappy, though, so I'd like to try one of my Accugroove cabs (2x12). On the other hand, I really can't imagine the MB cab being THAT horrible.

EDIT: Just saw Justin's reply...

The guitarist are both running Marshalls, one is using a Les Paul, the other a Tele most of the time, I think.
The thought that they are causing most of my problems has been crossing my mind, but to be honest - I don't want that to be true. Sound is such a personal thing and it's very difficult to tell someone to change it - most people get very sensitive, no matter how nice you try to choose your words. At least in my experience. :(

The MB amp is definitely pretty clean, that's why I wanted to dirty it up with pedal or using the VT Bass as an amp simulator.
The LM2 is 500w and the cabs can easily take this, so that shouldn't be a problem.
I'd really love to have an Aguilar AG500, though, but I'm not sure whether you'd consider that "inherently ugly". ;)

What I think might be one of the factors is that the EQ of MB is rather strange - LOW MID sits at 360Hz and HI MID at 800Hz

I realize that this is very difficult to judge without hearing something... I'll try and get something!
 
#9
my observations (experience):

1. situation: what do other members use? as JMJ said, when you already got two distorted, bottom heavy guitars, you have to fight for the sonic space of the distorted bass part... i guess you might find it that it takes a sound that is rather unpleasant on its own, but sounds right in the mix

2. bass: try different basses. i got the best results using passive basses...

3. strings: i got best results with nickel rounds and nickel flats (both Pyramids, fyi)

4. amp: as iceberg and JMJ said, some amps work better. both with pedals AND on their own. my best distorted sound came from distorting my Ashdown ABM, not the pedals.

5. speakers: as JMJ said, maybe the 410 isn't your friend in your situation. i find that 15s have their own thing going in the mids that might do the trick for you.

6. pedals: as the guys already said, work with some of them... seems like MB+VT should get you that basic gritty tone, however I have 0 experience with both!

7. you: well, could be the biggest reason ;) try different techniques (fingers and picks).


what I would do:
first, I'd try to get a gritty tone. I'd use your accugroove and a passive P-bass with nickel rounds. listen and look at your band members' EQ and try to find a place for your distorted sound. I'd use a blender to keep a solid, clean bottom at all times and then EQ (I'd try pedal EQ) the distorted sounds into the mix. Try different playing techniques at this point to ;)

and last, but not least - be subtle ;) the cleaner the sounds, the easier to work with. you're still a bass player, all that crazy distortion on top might not be what benefits your music the most (it's great for ego and fun, but you can do that at home)... also, keep in mind the sound guys you will encounter in live performances... if your sound relies on too many factors, you might get a big mess of a sound on your gigs... we don't all have the support that JMJ has on his gigs ;)
 
#10
sikamikanico said:
my observations (experience):
i guess you might find it that it takes a sound that is rather unpleasant on its own, but sounds right in the mix
Click to expand...

I can find a sound that "cuts" but it hasn't got a real "sound". It's just a compromise.

2. bass: try different basses. i got the best results using passive basses
Click to expand...

I'm using the G&L in passive mode and have been using a passive Jazz, too. I also tried a Stingray and while passive may be a little bit better, it wasn't that much of an issue.
But you maybe right in that I should try a Precision! :)
It's just that until now I've thought that a P bass doesn't work that well dropped to C#.

3. strings: i got best results with nickel rounds and nickel flats
Click to expand...
I'm using D'Addario Nickel Wounds.

4. amp: as iceberg and JMJ said, some amps work better. both with pedals AND on their own. my best distorted sound came from distorting my Ashdown ABM, not the pedals.
Click to expand...

I might be able to get hold of a Read Tube preamp, maybe I should try that. Other than than I'm of course trying to avoid spending $500-1000. :)

5. speakers: as JMJ said, maybe the 410 isn't your friend in your situation. i find that 15s have their own thing going in the mids that might do the trick for you.
Click to expand...

I'll keep that in mind, but I'd rather NOT spend more money, see above. I'm a "starving musician" - when I was young and didn't have to pay anything I spent all my money on boutique gear, but now there's not much budget left. :)
But I'll definitely try the 2x12 instead of the 4x10.

7. you: well, could be the biggest reason ;) try different techniques (fingers and picks).
Click to expand...

I tried that for every song and decided to use the appropriate playing style for the song. :) I've also checked playing at the bridge, neck PU, etc...

I'd use a blender to keep a solid, clean bottom at all times and then EQ (I'd try pedal EQ) the distorted sounds into the mix. (SNIP) and last, but not least - be subtle ;) the cleaner the sounds, the easier to work with. you're still a bass player, all that crazy distortion on top might not be what benefits your music the most (it's great for ego and fun, but you can do that at home)
Click to expand...

Yeah, the cleaner sound is easier to make "supportive" but it also sounds out of place. Regarding the blender: I've used one, but it gives the result of two signals sitting on top of each other, sounding very strange - not organic at all.

Anyway, thanks for all the support and suggestions. I'll definitely look into a tube amp thing and the Precision.
 
#13
Guitards man guitards. Thats your answer/delemna. You answered your own question.

Marshall amps. Like all tube amps sound best on "11" (yes every knob dimed). Asking a guitard to turn down is like asking them to bring an accordion instead of a Les Paul. Their response is predictble "my tone man, my tone".

Tuning to Eb???? There again "my tone man, my tone". No one in the audience can tell the difference. So why tune down???? "my tone man, my tone".

The first thing a guitard learns is an E chord. Playing all 6 notes into a tube amp is simply...... WOW, heaven does not sound as big AND I can do this all by myself.

Here is an exercise that I eventually ask of every guitar player I play with. "Lets play that song again only this time NO GUITARS DURING THE VOCALS we have a really good drummer here and a really good bass player here we can carry it". If I can get them to do it (its very difficult for a guitar player to....uuhm...... not play) the immediate response is. "WOW dynamics are so awesome, the song comes ALIVE, thats the best we ever played it etc. etc. etc". My experience is 100%, the next time we play that song the guitards are............... filling it up with those six note chords into a tube amp on "10". Guitards need to learn how not to play. The most important notes to play are called rests.

My suggesstion is this: Find one song that has one of these so called RESTS in it and point that out to the guitard that he needs to shut up right there so my bass "SOLO" will stand out. Right there is YOUR tone (if you can get the guitard to do it). My solos are always less than 3 seconds (runs, fills, chops etc.) and I ask the drummer to join in.

Your Guitards May Vary

PS If your not playing with guitards then disregard all that BS I just posted.
 
#15
Ok, here's a little snippet from a rehearsal.

Unfortunately, it features most of the "easy" parts of the music, ie no low C# powerchords, etc. But it features "most" of the sound I'm going for, so that's probably more useful. Maybe my vision is flawed from the beginning!

I also had to cut down the quality a lot because of file size restrictions, I hope it's still OK.

This is probably the best sound that I have gotten until now after weeks of experimenting. I was actually surprised how OK it sounded on the recording, in the room itself it felt not nearly as good. Very boomy and "too loud".

I arrived there by cutting the lows (12 OC is flat) to 9 OC, and bumping the LO/HI MIDS to around 3 OC and the HIGHS to 1-2 OC. Distortion is the Agro with the Tech21 XXL on top in the chorus (I think).

Please excuse the sloppy playing, I'm still getting used to playing with a pick. If you feel that something is strange but you can't quite put your finger on it: I'm from Germany and so is the band. Feel free to make fun of der German Gesang (singing). :)
 
#16
It's not as bad as I expected. Methinks that maybe your particular amp is not ideal for this musical circumstance. Perhaps something bigger cabinet-wise with more speaker surface area, which then may afford you the opportunity to turn down.

Ashdown? Aggie? GK? Ampeg? Mesa? Acoustic? Sunn? Something kinda rocking, bold, and ugly might be good. Also, tell your guitar players to carve out some low-end space for you!

JMJ
 
#17
ya, the rhythm player sounds like he's got a lot of low end on his guitar from that recording. really good stuff, though...your bass has a presence there so it's not getting totally lost, but yeah, more speakers and a tube or 14 would probably help.
 
#19
jmjbassplayer said:
It's not as bad as I expected.
Click to expand...

Yeah, as I said, I was pleasantly surprised by the recording, too. (Actually a bit proud of myself, too! ;) ) I did choose the "best sounding" track, so that listeners could at least tell the "sound aesthetic" that I'm going for. That seemed to be the best option to me since I could only upload one 500KB sound file.

We have one song in particular that I've been struggling with - 16th note riff withs lots of open string low Db-notes. One time I forgot to tune down and played the whole song in Eb - without anybody (including me!) noticing. I guess that should tell you how bad it really is at times. I just play from my "inner ear" during these moments, but I doesn't feel good. :)

Also, the mic was on a 2,20m high stand about 4 meters away from the end and 7 meters from the guitar amps. So that probably makes a big difference, too.

Anyway, enough justification for not sounding bad enough.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to these tracks (not limited to Justin, of course). I'm very aware that time is very precious these days.
 

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