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Using ONLY your head line out in gigs

J

juan13

Guest
Mar 4, 2015
240
23
36
south america
#1
Hi, i have a GK MB500. My plans are to buy a cab in the near future. I'm really getting exhausted of not finding my tone on gigs with other equipment.

On many gigs i end up playing other people combos. I have a tone hammer pedal also, so i have tools to achieve my aim, but nothings works better for me than Gk brightness and punch. How about using the MB500 on its line out mode connected to the combo, do you say that may work or is moving the head without many sense?
 
#2
juan13 said:
Hi, i have a GK MB500. My plans are to buy a cab in the near future. I'm really getting exhausted of not finding my tone on gigs with other equipment.

On many gigs i end up playing other people combos. I have a tone hammer pedal also, so i have tools to achieve my aim, but nothings works better for me than Gk brightness and punch. How about using the MB500 on its line out mode connected to the combo, do you say that may work or is moving the head without many sense?
Click to expand...
-->Bass to GK instrument input, GK line out to second amp instrument input?<--
If that is what you propose, then I would say, I wouldn't do that if I were me. (And last time I checked, I was.)
The audio going to the second amp will be WAAAAAAY to hot for and instrument input.
If however, you are going from the GK line out to some line in, or effects in, on the second amp, then you might have a shot. You just have not provided enough information about all the gear, especially the combo amp.
Now if I've misunderstood what are going to try to do, then please clarify.
It would help to create a written "output to input" description for each item that you will hook up.
Something like I did between the arrows.
 
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#3
The combos etc change everytime on every gig. BUT i have tried this setup on very small combos (25 watt) to big ones. The GK line out is that,a line out, not a balance out (it has one). And it can turn into a headphone out also (the volume here is hotter). And i can put out good volumes and the cones are not moving a single bit, neither the combos cliping. It all sounds and looks VERY safe. Obviously if i want important volume i have to turn it up on the combo. But no damage seems to be near at all. Am i crazy?

Now you can tell me if i am really damaging something. My original intention of the post was if this procedure was good for my tone or is something that will not change too much really. But the other issue is also worth talking to.
 
#4
You're not damaging anything, but two things you have to consider...

1. Not all sound systems and snakes are built to accept 1/4" jacks.

2. Unbalanced line outs result in capacitance buildup the longer your cable is, and you can lose a lot of treble.

Now if treble isn't important to you, then it will likely be fine, but then you'll still have to deal with the issue of boards and snakes not always being able to accept 1/4" plugs.
 
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#5
JimmyM said:
You're not damaging anything, but two things you have to consider...

1. Not all sound systems and snakes are built to accept 1/4" jacks.

2. Unbalanced line outs result in capacitance buildup the longer your cable is, and you can lose a lot of treble.

Now if treble isn't important to you, then it will likely be fine, but then you'll still have to deal with the issue of boards and snakes not always being able to accept 1/4" plugs.
Click to expand...

But i'm not connecting my head into a board, im connectin it to the input of the combo that i use that night. Treble es something i care for but between the combo and the head i don't need a too much large cable.

By the way, you can tell me "you are not making too much tone differecne doing this", and i will consider it. The thing is that the GK sound is what i'm up to and i am trying to make it happen in situations like this. The tone hammer transparency is excellent but when the amps at the places are bad, GK colouration doesn't seem a bad road.
 
#6
Oh, I misunderstood...sorry. Well you know, it could work fine, but I think a lot of that will have to do with the combo you're using itself. Some put a lot more of themselves into the fray than others. But it's certainly worth a shot rather than having to use a combo you don't like whatsoever. I'd rather have a little of something I like than a lot of something I don't. But ultimately I'd get my own cab and use my own stuff when possible.
 
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#7
Yeah, if i'm not destroying anything i will do it. I also don't think the sound difference will be HUGE at all. But GK has a tone and GK equipment can be nearer to get it. I really find very good the tone hammer, it's very transparent and the AGS really works, but i'm not too happy with the idea of choosing only one mid frequency instead of the classic LOW MID/HI MID (bassically because i use both of them very, they lead my eq). I guess my search is in for a more modern sound, and puting my GK head in this mode is like having a GK preamp i guess.
 
#11
JimmyM said:
Pretty sure the line out is instrument level. I could be wrong, but it's usually the case.
Click to expand...
By my reckoning, Instrument level is what your bass generates, it plugs into the instrument input and is amplified by the pre-amp section of an amplifier before going to the power amp section.
After the instrument signal is amplified by the pre-amp section. It can now feed the power amp, and the effects loop output. If, by my definitions you were to plug a line level signal into the instrument input of an amp, it would be too hot and probably distort.
It would be something like connecting the send or program output of a mixer, to the mic input of another mixer.
When folks talk about hooking two amps together by taking the effects loop output of one amp and feeding it to the effects loop input of the other amp, that is all happening with line level signals. That level is significantly higher than instrument level signals.
 
#12
Old Garage-Bander said:
By my reckoning, Instrument level is what your bass generates, it plugs into the instrument input and is amplified by the pre-amp section of an amplifier before going to the power amp section.
After the instrument signal is amplified by the pre-amp section. It can now feed the power amp, and the effects loop output. If, by my definitions you were to plug a line level signal into the instrument input of an amp, it would be too hot and probably distort.
It would be something like connecting the send or program output of a mixer, to the mic input of another mixer.
When folks talk about hooking two amps together by taking the effects loop output of one amp and feeding it to the effects loop input of the other amp, that is all happening with line level signals. That level is significantly higher than instrument level signals.
Click to expand...
Just read the manual...the line out also doubles as a headphone jack but it has to be switched. I don't know if this is correct, but I would think one position would be line level and the other instrument level, no?
 
#13
My chain is like this: I plug in my BASS to the GK head MB500, then i use a normal 1/4 cable that goes form the line out to the input of the combo.

The GK mb500 has a balance out (with the xlr cable) and has this line out/headphone out (with 1/4) that the manual says can be used as chain out on the line out option (my physical manual speaks of that feature, but my head only says line out, others i have seen have written line/chain out). Obviously the volume is hotter when use the headphone out.

Here is a picture just like mine:

http://www.mannysonlinemusicstore.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Gallien-Krueger-MB500-back.jpg

Personally when i first experimented on this procedure i checked out not only the volume but also the speakers cone movement and nothing seems to be getting out of control.
 
#15
I see the picture that has the 1/4" jack that is either headphone out or line out depending on the switch.
I have no problem with that part of it. I am only concerned that the levels out of the line out are too hot to plug into and amp's instrument input jack. If it works for you then fine, but it may not always work on all amps and I thought you said you were plugging into other and varied amps at different venues. All I can say is that what they are calling line out must be pretty low level.

Speaker level is here ---














Headphone level is here ---


Line level is here ---








Instrument level from a passive bass is here ---
 
#16
JimmyM said:
You're not damaging anything, but two things you have to consider...

1. Not all sound systems and snakes are built to accept 1/4" jacks.

2. Unbalanced line outs result in capacitance buildup the longer your cable is, and you can lose a lot of treble.

Now if treble isn't important to you, then it will likely be fine, but then you'll still have to deal with the issue of boards and snakes not always being able to accept 1/4" plugs.
Click to expand...
All cables have capacitance and therefore all cables have capacitive reactance. This applies to both balanced and unbalanced.
The total capacitance of a given length of any cable is a fixed amount. Cable capacitance is measured in pfd/ft (picofarads per foot).
So one foot of cable has X pfds of capcitance. Two feet of the same cable has twice X, of total capacitance. The total capacitance of a cable does not change with frequency.
What changes with frequency is the capacitive reactance of the cable. As the frequency increases, the effective capacitance of the cable increases. This effective capacitance aka capacitive reactance acts like the capacitor in a tone control to attenuate higher frequencies while letting the lower freqs get through more or less unaffected. This all happens because the impedances involved in a instrument cable are very high. Lower impedance cables such as line out, direct out or speaker cables are not affected nearly as much because of the lower impedances. This is why a quality instrument cables are more expensive. They (hopefully) use cable with lower capacitance.
For what it is worth, if you roll your own instrument cables my favorite is RG-58a/u aka Belden 8259. It has lower capacitance per foot when compared to normal instrument cables. It is flexible. And the size fits well with using solder 1/4" plugs with cable clamps, like the Switchcraft 280.
 
#17
Old Garage-Bander said:
All cables have capacitance and therefore all cables have capacitive reactance. This applies to both balanced and unbalanced.
The total capacitance of a given length of any cable is a fixed amount. Cable capacitance is measured in pfd/ft (picofarads per foot).
So one foot of cable has X pfds of capcitance. Two feet of the same cable has twice X, of total capacitance. The total capacitance of a cable does not change with frequency.
What changes with frequency is the capacitive reactance of the cable. As the frequency increases, the effective capacitance of the cable increases. This effective capacitance aka capacitive reactance acts like the capacitor in a tone control to attenuate higher frequencies while letting the lower freqs get through more or less unaffected. This all happens because the impedances involved in a instrument cable are very high. Lower impedance cables such as line out, direct out or speaker cables are not affected nearly as much because of the lower impedances. This is why a quality instrument cables are more expensive. They (hopefully) use cable with lower capacitance.
For what it is worth, if you roll your own instrument cables my favorite is RG-58a/u aka Belden 8259. It has lower capacitance per foot when compared to normal instrument cables. It is flexible. And the size fits well with using solder 1/4" plugs with cable clamps, like the Switchcraft 280.
Click to expand...
Good reply, but we've already determined that I misunderstood the application. For some reason, I thought he was going to the board with the line out, not just to the input of another amp.
 
#18
Old Garage-Bander said:
I see the picture that has the 1/4" jack that is either headphone out or line out depending on the switch.
I have no problem with that part of it. I am only concerned that the levels out of the line out are too hot to plug into and amp's instrument input jack. If it works for you then fine, but it may not always work on all amps and I thought you said you were plugging into other and varied amps at different venues. All I can say is that what they are calling line out must be pretty low level.

Speaker level is here ---














Headphone level is here ---


Line level is here ---








Instrument level from a passive bass is here ---
Click to expand...

The thing is the speakers doesn't move at all, it seems that is very hot but nothing seems to be moving too much. This brings me to another question, what are this line out options thought for? is a normal speaker way too much resistant to a bass amp one?
 
#19
juan13 said:
The thing is the speakers doesn't move at all, it seems that is very hot but nothing seems to be moving too much. This brings me to another question, what are this line out options thought for? is a normal speaker way too much resistant to a bass amp one?
Click to expand...
JimmyM said:
Good reply, but we've already determined that I misunderstood the application. For some reason, I thought he was going to the board with the line out, not just to the input of another amp.
Click to expand...
Ah! OK! I had not picked up on that.
 

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