Using Send and Return for FX pedals.

[40Hz]

Well... I’ve never heard a reverb that sounds good being fed into a distorted preamp. Either in a garage or onstage.

That was the Phil Spector “Wall of Sound” thing that was very popular back in the day. A splashy spanky over the top sort of reverb effect. If memory serves the Edge in U2 used that combination a lot in the band’s early days back in the 80s as well.

It’s a sound you may or may not like. (I’m not overly wild about it most times.) And it definitely sounds better on single note runs in a solo rather than for chords AFAIC. But like anything, it’s largely a matter of individual taste.

I personally think that, outside the studio, most times when you add reverb it does little other than make the bass disappear in the mix at typical stage volume levels - unless the reverb unit was specifically designed to be used with a bass range instrument like Iron Ether’s Nimbus reverb is.

For something like a low level coffeehouse or bookstore engagement however, a touch of reverb can add some pleasant ambience to the bass and make it bigger sounding despite being turned down. So a lot depends on where you are and what you’re doing when it comes to reverb.

Interesting thing about reverb is it’s often employed to get more note sustain and legato. Which is something many compressors can do much better with fewer negative side effects - and also not get your signal lost in the mix. But that’s a subject for a whole separate discussion.

 

[matante]

Plenty of indie bands have awful guitar tones. I think it's a point of pride with them.

I haven't noticed this, and certainly not with any bands going for a retro sound. They're indie, not punk bands.

 

[40Hz]

Well this changed my mind, thanks 40Hz, It'll give me something to tinker with.

Tinkering is the key. There’s so much variation between pedals and pedal impedances that it’s hard to know what’s going to sound best (or even work) with your own rig until you try it. I’ve seen the heavy duty pedal users spend hours and hours working out their optimal pedal order. So take all pedal advice for what it’s worth and don’t be afraid to experiment. Some of the most interesting effects came into existence by accident or mistake.

Luck!

 

[Real Soon]

It's been said, but I was slow to realize that in a lot of bass amps, the send/return functions were designed for rackmount gear rather than a pedalboard.

Which makes sense in a way, as the development of serious effect usage on bass was in the 80s, when rack gear, esp digital, was hitting a peak in use and flexibility. And a lot of players who either came up in the 80s or were taught & bequeathed gear wisdom by their 80s-heavy teachers are playing now, so rackmount gear concepts haven't gone away as far as some of us pedalheads might suspect.

I've come to believe that to be safe, inserting between instrument and input is the way to go if you're not certain about amp insert/return specs. And unless you're really jonesing for a studio-type clean post-preamp effect sound, which is usually reserved for voice and maybe guitar delay/reverb anyway, it won't make more than a small and controllable difference.

That said, if you're doing ambient sounds while pushing the amp (and you might've said so... I'm popping in and skipped some replies), that could change things. On the other hand, a number of reverb pedals, like the EHX Cathedral, Meris Mercury 7 (whoo I like this one), and some others, can take line-level input. So, some rackmount-type flexibility can be had in pedal form depending on what you need.

 

[40Hz]

Agedhorse actually touched on this the other day. Players like having preamp out and power amp in jacks. That's the main function of the fx loop nowadays.

Much as I admire AgedHorse and pretty much agree 100% with most of what he says, he’s not the final word on everything that’s going on out in the music world. And I doubt he’d ever claim he was. His focus is on the desires and needs of the particular demographic he designs for. That’s not everybody who’s out there.

I know a lot of musicians (especially the younger ones) who continue to use their effects loop in “old fashioned” ways.

 

[matante]

Much as I admire AgedHorse and pretty much agree 100% with most of what he says, he’s not the final word on everything that’s going on out in the music world. And I doubt he’d ever claim he was. His focus is on the needs of the particular demographic he designs for. That’s not everybody who’s out there.

I know a lot of musicians (especially the younger ones) who continue to use their effects loop in “old fashioned” ways.

I'm in the opposite situation. I don't know any or see any bassists using effects loops for pedals. (Some guitarists here and there, yes, as I already acknowledged.)

 

[agedhorse]

Much as I admire AgedHorse and pretty much agree 100% with most of what he says, he’s not the final word on everything that’s going on out in the music world. And I doubt he’d ever claim he was. His focus is on the desires and needs of the particular demographic he designs for. That’s not everybody who’s out there.

I know a lot of musicians (especially the younger ones) who continue to use their effects loop in “old fashioned” ways.

I'm in the opposite situation. I don't know any or see any bassists using effects loops for pedals. (Some guitarists here and there, yes, as I already acknowledged.)

I certainly don't claim to know it all, nor am I the final word.

I do spend a lot of time studying how players are actually using the loops that are provided (by all manufacturers), and in my experience MOST (not all) use them either for line level effects (that simply can't be used in front of the amp which is instrument level), or are using these points as patch points (insert points) to access the preamp out and power amp in.

Many pedals operate at instrument level (roughly -20 to -30dBu) and most loops operate at line level (roughly +4dBu) so a pedal's input would be overdriven by a line level effects send, and even if you were able to trim down the send to the pedal, there would need to be 20dB of makeup gain along with >+4dBU of maximum output level to drive the line level loop return back at the nominal level the remaining circuitry in t he amp needs to see.

Every once in a while I get a question about parallel loops, they have gone by the wayside for the most part because the wet/dry mix control on the parallel loop is now provided internally on almost all pedals where a parallel loop would be beneficial.

Hope this helps.

I just don't see or hear of many bass players using loops for pedals in all of the genres I am familiar with.

 

[40Hz]

I'm in the opposite situation. I don't know any or see any bassists using effects loops for pedals. (Some guitarists here and there, yes, as I already acknowledged.)

Guess it’s a where you are and who you hang with thing. Most bass players I know aren’t doing much at all with effects or the effects loop - period. They mainly use DIs, drives and compressors. And sometimes an outboard pre like a SansAmp or Q-Strip.

Even with me, I will play around with effects at home. (Having a guitarist for an S.O. helps since her assemblage of gear is nicer and far more extensive than my own.) But when I’m actually playing bass (as opposed to playing around) I’ll bring along a DI, one of several compressors, a mild OD, and sometimes an outboard bax type preamp. All the “fun” stuff stays home. And even so, about half the time what I bring stays in my gig bag and I just end up plugged straight into my amp.

But to your other point, I was speaking of effect loop usage in a broader sense earlier and not confining it to just your average workaday bass player since I got the impression the OP wanted to experiment.

 

[40Hz]

I just don't see or hear of many bass players using loops for pedals in all of the genres I am familiar with.

I’m mostly hanging with the experimental and fringe crowd these days so I can understand that.

And as I acknowledged earlier, I too am one of those who uses the loop primarily to turn my fancy amp head into a power amp in order to swap out different preamps at will. Vestiges of my rack mount days back in the 80s. I should probably just get a nice power amp for that instead. But I have too much gear as it is already. So return jack it is.

 

[NHM]

Can the Send be used as output to go to the FOH mixer - equivalent to a post-eq DI but plugging in to the Line level input on the mixer rather than the Mic level input?

 

[chadds]

This issue varies by configuration. I play a few instruments, guitar among them (as many others here do). What follows is just my opinion.... it works for me.

With discrete effects, some sound better before the instrument input on the amp.... and some sound better in the effects loop. For my guitar rig, I have these pedals before the input (and in this order):
vibe > synth > compressor > wah > phaser/envelope > pitch shift > distortion > drive > flanger > chorus.
From the amp’s effect send, I have:
chorus(2) > tremolo > rotary > delay > reverb.

If the phaser did not also include the envelope follower, it would perhaps be in the effects loop.

But if you are using a multieffects unit, you usually need to put it into the instrument input - and rely on it, rather than the amp, for any above-threshold drive effects. You could also opt to ignore the amp’s instrument input entirely and plug the effect unit directly into the effect return on the amp - but then you tend to lose the character of the amp, and might as well just get a neutral inexpensive power amp of some sort. I have a multieffect, and am putting that into a mini mixer which allows me to balance dry and effect into the amp’s instrument input.

I'm the exception to the rule, apparently. I use my preamps effects loop. I'm trying to have as clean a signal as I can going into the preamp. I do run my compressor and my light drive into the front of my preamp, but everything else goes through the effects loop. In fact, my other pedals go through a loop switcher, into the effects loop. It looks like this...

View attachment 3431259

G70->BC-1X->BB-1X(or VT Bass)->Subway+ input.
Subway FX Send->Boss ES-5 input
Loop 1-MXR VBO
Loop 2-DG X7
Loop 3-Boss CEB-3
Loop 4-Boss PH-3
Loop 5-MXR BEF
Boss ES-5 output->Subway FX Return

If I don't want anything, I can just click off the BC-1X and the BB-1X. My signal is just going thru 2 pedals instead of 7 or 8. Even if every pedal was true-bypass, I feel like you still leave a little tone behind. Also with the ES-5, if I want to completely reorder the pedals going thru it, I can go into the menu and move everything, without unplugging anything. The Boss loop switchers are legit!

It sounds pretty massive, I dig it. I'm a weirdo...;-)

It works but you’re using a pedal Pre with its own effects loop. The OP is trying to discern the efficacy of putting his pedal effects in the effects loop of an integrated amp. An effects loop that operates at line level not instrument level.

 

[GreyBeard]

The only advantage I see is if amp/preamp has a FX blend knob. That will give you a little more control over the pedals effect on your sound.

 

[jj.833]

I was experimenting with using ca5-pedals-board through send/return on my EBS amp few years ago. After some experimenting, I came to a conclusion that from the perspective of small gigs musician, the main practical difference between instrument input and send/return is the need to carry two more cables when using send/return jacks. The quality of sound, in my case, was determined by the quality of the effects. I solved this problem by using Invalid Link Removed. I don't remember any need to fight the problem of different input sensitivities.

 

[chadds]

Ravens Lab MDb-1 had/has side chain effects loop so no original signal is lost. You blend like on a mixing bd.

 

[agedhorse]

Can the Send be used as output to go to the FOH mixer - equivalent to a post-eq DI but plugging in to the Line level input on the mixer rather than the Mic level input?

Yes, but unlike with a balanced signal from a DI into the balanced input on the mixer, using an unbalanced output has no way to break a ground loop should noise be present.

Ravens Lab MDb-1 had/has side chain effects loop so no original signal is lost. You blend like on a mixing bd.

This is fine for effects that are used with a parallel loop, but many effects are designed for a serial loop (even many parallel effects units, which include their own onboard blend controls) but serial effects often do not work well due to polarity and phase differences due to the processing which can sound terrible when used in a parallel loop at the wet and dry paths are combined.

 

[dkelley]

I know it's been said in this thread, but i found it a little vague and confusing probably to a noob, so... to clarify things... the reasons to use loop (or not) are as follows...

Fx loop means your amp tone controls only affect your bass,, not the pedals, and you can also sort of alter or drive the input to the first pedal somewhat by shifting your amp's controls, but you can't alter output from pedals.

However in the loop, the output of the pedals goes into a clean, flat amp who's only tone shaping is the speaker, and if a tube main ... then your master could add post overdrive from power amp tubes arguably (but more of a guitar thing).

Fx will sound cleaner in loop, but maybe not what you like.

Verb, delay etc sound nice in loop, comp, overdrive etc sound better b4 input imho. Guitar or bass, either.

Cheers

 

[pbass6811]

It works but you’re using a pedal Pre with its own effects loop. The OP is trying to discern the efficacy of putting his pedal effects in the effects loop of an integrated amp. An effects loop that operates at line level not instrument level.

It says right on the unit that the effects loop is line level...

 

[ToneMaven]

This will help you: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[chadds]

It says right on the unit that the effects loop is line level...

View attachment 3431691

Not to argue at all. But that’s print on the back of a unit. There is no standardization in the industry. If I use an old Alesis Multiverb 19”, a Boss CE-2, and a Dan Electro Fab tone and a Fulltone, want to bet they don’t all have the same input and output levels? Some sound better in an effects loop some in front of the amps input. The effects loop in an integrated amp is often proprietary. Try to drive an industry power amp with that pre. Might be great might be meh. Whole amp works fine. Your unit is designed to work effectively just as you are using it. That’s why you have success. Integrated amps do not have equal specs manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

[lowendrv]

Pedals like compression, envelope filters, distortion, and overdrive tend to work better going into the amp’s input. Modulation effects like chorus and flange etc., along with delay and reverb tend to work better in the loop. However, there are no rules, and it really comes down to personal preference through trial and error.

Some claim time based and modulation effects work better in loop . It's all personal .