Values Dropping???

[SilGarzaJr]

This will be short and sweet. Is it me or has the price of all items bass (and other musical items of interest), have been increasingly dropping? I am all about getting a good deal but are we experiencing a paradigm shift in what we value and truly appreciate. It appears that this is where the discord is beginning to exist. What do we value and what do we appreciate? It seemed that only a few years ago these co-existed. I don't think that to be the case anymore.

Thoughts welcome.

sg

 

[Warpeg]

NAMM can somewhat expand on this: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Mastermold]

NAMM can somewhat expand on this: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Good stuff in there.

 

[muggsy]

The economy has been lousy for a few years now, and prices on most all used items have been affected. Not limited to bass or even music-related items. Value is both objective (market value, what have similar items sold for recently) and subjective (what's it worth to me, which may or may not equate to market value). Whether it's real estate or musical instruments, things that are well-priced and in demand tend to sell quickly. If you have something in the classifieds that hasn't sold, chances are you've overestimated market value and/or demand.

Appreciation is completely personal and subjective. I appreciate lots of things that I have no desire to own, as well as other things that I'd love to own but can't afford without diverting funds from more important things like food and shelter. it's a matter of priorities. I appreciate the bass stuff I own, and the subjective value of each of those items to me exceeds the objective (market) value. If it didn't for any particular item, I'd try to sell it.

 

[Muddslide]

I think automation and computerization have had a big effect. There are simply metric tons of more instruments available, and at much better price points as well as more consistent QC.

 

[Muddslide]

^^^ I got interrupted, but had planned to say I believe there will always be players who highly value certain vintage instruments/gear or luthier-built, custom/boutique instruments.

While the value/perceived value of those sorts of things fluctuate, of course, I think they may remain more stable than other mass-produced instruments (and goods of any kind, really.)

I'm just talking out of my rear end here, really.

But I have been playing a good long while. I remember in the 70s and 80s, buying some offshore, "budget brand" guitar or bass was a real crapshoot. Sometimes you wound up with unplayable junk.

At the same time, there were countless instruments manufactured during that period (particularly in Japan) that were excellent. The value of those has gone up considerably from what I see. For instance, old Grecos, Tokais, and other brands based on vintage Fender specs and made with considerable precision (no pun intended...) and quality components. I personally feel some of the MIJ Fender clones of the 70s and early 80s (including the early 80s MIJ Squiers) were--in general--on par with or superior to the instruments Fender USA was churning out during the same years.

You could pick up some of these clones for low money for a long time, but now many of the better MIJs of the 70s-80s have increased in value significantly.

The funny aspect of this, to me, is that back when they were being produced, many (perhaps most) players I knew and heard talking about them just rolled their eyes and said things like "Eh, that's just a Japanese copy. Gonna be junk. Can't possibly be as good as a Fender."

Now people are singing a different tune.

 

[placedesjardins]

This will be short and sweet. Is it me or has the price of all items bass (and other musical items of interest), have been increasingly dropping? I am all about getting a good deal but are we experiencing a paradigm shift in what we value and truly appreciate. It appears that this is where the discord is beginning to exist. What do we value and what do we appreciate? It seemed that only a few years ago these co-existed. I don't think that to be the case anymore.

Thoughts welcome.

sg

I think part of it is economy driven and another is supply driven. I got a couple deals on cymbals a couple of years ago, when the housing bubble burst (economy down) and there were a lot of people trying to sell their used cymbals at the same time (high supply). The perfect storm combo. There are cast cymbals, not cheapo sheet cymbals.
The market changes and sometimes it takes years for things to shift one way or the other.

 

[Chuck King]

My anecdotal gut feeling is that prices for used gear are still a little inflated. I've noticed that over recent years there seems to be lots more stuff for sale on, e.g., craigslist or forum ads, but, a very large amount of it seems to be priced above what one would expect in a transaction involving a knowledgeable and motivated seller. This suggests that a lot of people selling gear are either not knowledgeable about the used-gear market, or not very motivated to actually sell their gear. I don't know if its due to people who feel that they "need to get $X" out of something (regardless of its actual value), or people who have something they don't really use but don't NEED to sell it.

I haven't kept my ear that close to the ground lately, so if it seems like prices are dropping, it may be that more people are realizing that to actually sell gear it needs to be priced competitively, and usually not at a high percentage of the price of new gear. Although I've often wondered whether lots of listings of high-priced gear could change the perception of what an appropriate used price for a piece of gear is. People new to the market may not realize that a lot of asking prices are bulls**t and that eventually most stuff can be obtained for a reasonable price, and may just assume that the high prices are what used gear costs.

I have not noticed that new gear is getting cheaper, except in the sense that the prices may not be going up in exact correlation to the value of the dollar going down. So a new Fender (or whatever) may cost less now than one cost years ago in inflation-adjusted dollars, but the total number of dollars is still going up. However, I think a lot of gear being made today is as good or better than anything that came before, so a buyer gets a lot for his or her money, in comparison to the past.

 

[bholder]

CNC machines and similar robotic technology will eventually make new prices cheaper and cheaper, and generally trending towards higher build quality, has to. That has to have an effect on the resale market, but at what point will vintage and handmade prices "separate" and appreciate again, hard to predict.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I don't think they are necessarily dropping I think it's more of new cost going up so there's a bigger loss. Doesn't mean value is really changing. It seems like it because there's a bigger loss when you sell it. For example I bought both my mim fenders for around $300. The price of them new has new keeps going up but I still refuse to spend that much on one. So the newer the bass the bigger the loss.

 

[whatever4]

^^^ I got interrupted, but had planned to say I believe there will always be players who highly value certain vintage instruments/gear or luthier-built, custom/boutique instruments.

While the value/perceived value of those sorts of things fluctuate, of course, I think they may remain more stable than other mass-produced instruments (and goods of any kind, really.)

I'm just talking out of my rear end here, really.

But I have been playing a good long while. I remember in the 70s and 80s, buying some offshore, "budget brand" guitar or bass was a real crapshoot. Sometimes you wound up with unplayable junk.

At the same time, there were countless instruments manufactured during that period (particularly in Japan) that were excellent. The value of those has gone up considerably from what I see. For instance, old Grecos, Tokais, and other brands based on vintage Fender specs and made with considerable precision (no pun intended...) and quality components. I personally feel some of the MIJ Fender clones of the 70s and early 80s (including the early 80s MIJ Squiers) were--in general--on par with or superior to the instruments Fender USA was churning out during the same years.

You could pick up some of these clones for low money for a long time, but now many of the better MIJs of the 70s-80s have increased in value significantly.

The funny aspect of this, to me, is that back when they were being produced, many (perhaps most) players I knew and heard talking about them just rolled their eyes and said things like "Eh, that's just a Japanese copy. Gonna be junk. Can't possibly be as good as a Fender."

Now people are singing a different tune.

There's the Antique Roadshow aspect of it. Where an old Fender will bring in a high price based on historic value, whether it plays well or not.

 

[Muddslide]

There's the Antique Roadshow aspect of it. Where an old Fender will bring in a high price based on historic value, whether it plays well or not.

True, and as far as older things--often mistakenly called "antiques"--a lot of this has to do with eBay and places like that. Now everyone thinks just because they have a full set of Flintstones jelly jar glasses from 1974, they must be worth a fortune!

 

[MegaSwing]

The binge is over, and there's definitely a glut. That will produce low demand as well as low prices. The used market always shadows the new market.

Stuff has been much slower to sell even here in the TB classifieds for many months now, really nice, well-priced stuff.

 

[A-Step-Towards]

The economy is still in the dumps, not much has changed there. I dont see used prices on stuff that actually ends up selling at more then It was 7-8 years ago. If you want like a MIM Fender to sell then you better only post it for $250-300 locally or its not going to sell, which is what they sold for used in 2008 and before, yet they cost more new now.

In the past year I have posted 3 American Standard J basses for sale, all original and with original cases. I sold 2 of the 3 for $700, 1 is still unsold and the ones that did sell took around 4 months sitting on craigslist. I think thats pretty bad for a $1400 new USA bass.

 

[orange joe]

I dont know about basses because I've been buying from the same builder for a while.All I know is that all the SWR gear I want keeps going up

 

[gnarlyWarlock]

With such steep depreciation, I wonder what purpose there is to buy new, lest you can't find the item you're looking for used. In the used market at least there's a glimmer of hope you won't lose that much cash over time.

 

[superheavyfunk]

I don't think they are necessarily dropping I think it's more of new cost going up so there's a bigger loss. Doesn't mean value is really changing. It seems like it because there's a bigger loss when you sell it. For example I bought both my mim fenders for around $300. The price of them new has new keeps going up but I still refuse to spend that much on one. So the newer the bass the bigger the loss.

The cost of new gear has been dropping overall, which does some damage to the expected prices in the used market. Add to that, the fact that folks are still trying to catch up from the economic downturn and that people are still holding on to their pocket change for fear of another market calamity and it makes sense that its hard to sell things (gear, in our case) for the price we'd like to get for them.

 

[bucephylus]

I suppose I have a somewhat more draconian view of things economic.

Wall Street will tell you everything is great. The folks there have been accumulating fabulous wealth. Why not? The Fed gives the banksters free money to loan out at whatever they all decide the interest rate is. Gee, what a business plan! Real rocket science there. How come I can't have that job?

Meanwhile, the regular Joe and Jane has been getting whacked upside the head with increasing expenses, lower paying and fewer job opportunities.

Basically, our "civilized" free society has been getting hollowed out in the middle to make way for, oh joy, the standard historical European two class society.

So, back to musicians; as that is all going on, just where do you think the working musicians fall in the ranks? You got it; they're with the serfs. So, now, you've got to apply supply and demand to an economic good that mainly only the "lower" class needs. Yup, that will produce price pressure.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

In real economic terms most peoples income has stagnated or dropped since the 70's. Unless you are a professional musician, musical instruments are a luxury, not a necessity. People with less disposable income to spend are going to prioritize. Since the market is awash with relatively well made guitars made by people who have extremely low wages, no benefits, and often unsafe or abusive working conditions, the prices are likely to remain low for years to come.

 

[lomo]

In developed countries, growth is slowing to levels that are more in keeping with historical norms (see Piketty's book, Capital in the 21st Century for a tight discussion backed by extensive, global research dating back before to the French revolution). Get used to it, 'cause it's here to stay, irrespective of the desire to blame it on who's in office or what is happening in another part of the world or oil prices or whatever. The economy is slower than what we have been conditioned to expect/want, and apart from the top 10% (and even more poignantly the top 1% and .1% of earners), buying power is down.