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Double Bass Velvet strings megathread part III

#201
Hi Jörg,

thanks for your help. Im am interested in the Compas series because of their bow qualities. For some reason, the Obligato's solos (downtuned) I have right now, do not give me the bow quality I was hoping for. But, low tension is also very important, nice for the fingers. Anyway, a few questions (107.5 cm mensur):

1. would COMPAS SOLO downtuned to orchestra give too low tension to bow? Calculation: 26 kg on 105 = 27,3 kg on 107.5 - 18 % of 27,3 = 22.4 kg
2. the SUIT variant is therefore the best option - low tension and nice bow (25 kg)?
3. where do you purchase your strings - i know Invalid Link Removed is quite cheap;
4. what do you mean by 'check the strings' and how do I know they need to be replaced?
5. I have mailed Nuno 3 times and also contacted their regular e-mail address a few times. But no response - so how can I ask him for a replacement? There is a phone number on their site - I can try that ofcourse ...:-)

Thanks again!
 
#202
I belive Nuno is in Portugal caring for his parents just now, so may be difficult to reach. Bassico in Munich (they have an online store) is a bit less expensive than the store you linked to (e.g. 220 rather than 262 Euro for Garbos). I had a positive response to a query, and they seem to be helpful.

Good luck!
 
#203
I have used Obligatos in the past and also have a student with Obligatos (orchestra) and I can promise you that the Compas 180's (also orchestra) are much lower tension. However, the Compas 180's do NOT feel like gut strings the way that Anima's do. They are a tad less flexible, and feel more like a steel string to me. I have never used the Compas 180 suit set, as I have always played steel and didn't want to do too low in tension. I have found that I can play 4 hour jazz gigs on my bass with medium high action and my hands are ok at the end of it with the Compas 180's. Their bowed tone gets better as the strings get older and the pizz tone gets darker. They have NO roll under the fingers which is an improvement over Obligatos. I don't think they are the best arco string ever, I think BelCanto's get that title, and as a matter of fact think Obligatos are easier to bow once their initial brightness wears off. I DO think they are best arco string I have used that also gets a great-kinda sorta gut like pizz tone.
I agree with others who have compared them to Evah Pirazzis and found them more vibrant and harmonically rich than the EP's.
If you are unhappy with your bowed Obligatos, I don't think you will like Compas 180's. I don't know if that is because your Obligato's are too low tension when detuned? Compas 180's will be higher tension the Obligatos, but more flexible if that makes sense, but they seem to require more bow pressure. Again, the point of 180's to me, is that they are a GREAT hybrid string. If you are a hybrid player, then you can't do much better IMHO. If you are primarily an arco player, I think there are some other options that are preferred.
Hope my rambling makes sense. Overall I have been enjoying the 180's, but I have been considering a return to the Spiro's of my youth.
 
#204
Hi Tony,

1. I would think you should not go too low in tension for several reasons.
My main reason is what I call dynamic response. If you dig in more, just very little more output will come out of the string if tension is too low. But also the string will sink down more when bowing, making the angle to the neighboring strings much smaller.
For me the Compas 180 SUIT and Innovation 140B are the lower limit, but this also might be because my bass likes higher tension strings.

2. If you do more pizz than bowing Compas 180 (SUIT) are best, if you need a nicer arco sound you might try out the Innovation 140B (which are also much cheaper when ordered from major UK mail order houses). The 140B are a bit softer when pizzed and you might need to bend the lower two strings a bit to get them more flexible for more sustain. The 140B is a bit darker than the Compas 180, but still a bit brighter than the Evahs.
So on my 109 cm scale I use either Innovation 140B or Compas 180 (regular) or Spirocore Weich 4/4. And like engedi1 I looked for a hybrid string with soft feel in the left hand.

My additional handicap was the availibility of a good high C string with a diameter of at least 1.2 millimeters, which I canot get with steel. The Compas 180 would be good if manufacturing quality was better (and not so damn expensive), the Innovation 140B/H are aluminium wrapped and too low tension, I have a promising prototype with chromesteel wrapping that still needs some work. This is what I use most of the time. All steel strings I tried either are too thin or have too much tension for me.

3. bassico.eu is a good and more or less cheap source of strings (at least for Velvet), stock strings will be send fast, rather exotic ones may take more than a month.

4. Some Compas 180 strings had problems with the windings not being smooth. You cannot try to correct this, the winding will break (I tried it). The worst was the high C, but sometimes it can happen to a string of the regular set too, which has a much higher manufacturing quality than the high C.

5. GrowlerBox is right that Nuno cares for his parents in Portugal and tries to do the Velvet service in parallel as good as he can. This might result in delayed responses or the lack of response in less important cases. But he tries to respond quickly if a string is damaged. And there is still the chance that bassico will replace your string (during the first half year) if you cannot reach Nuno.

BTW, the Compas 180 is brighter to the players ear, so hearing intonation is a bit easier than with the 140B. But the SUIT may lay in between, not too far away from the 140B.
Any string will get more flexible after some use, getting better sustain and less highs.
I also liked a combination of Innovation 140B (C-)G-D and Spirocore Weich 4/4 A and E, but bowing will be a bit different on both.

I would try the 140B first since they are a lot cheaper than the Velvets. If you want some more brightness (and maybe also more tension) you still can buy the Compas 180 SUIT or regular and have an orientation with tension.
You may also wait a bit since I got a test set from Velvet for more bowing friendly string very similar to the Compas 180 (regular), that you may want to try instead. These strings are not available now. I don't know when this will be the case or if they want to change something to the string before they would sell them. I just thought you might want to know this and try the 140B first.
(Feel free to ask me again what to do if you have a short pizz sustain with 140B A and E.)

Like engedi1, I could play either Compas 180 or Innovation 140B (and Spirocore Weich 4/4 except the high C) the whole day long. And unfortunately I don't practice very regularly.

Jörg
 
#205
DoubleMIDI said:
Hi Tony,


Like engedi1, I could play either Compas 180 or Innovation 140B (and Spirocore Weich 4/4 except the high C) the whole day long. And unfortunately I don't practice very regularly.

Jörg
Click to expand...

Hello Jorg. Can you compare the tension of Spirocore Weich with Compas 180? I have never used the Weich, but only Spirocore Mittel, and I find the tension of the Mittle a little bit to high, and the bowing a little scratchy. Do you find that bowing the Weich is easier than the Mittel?
 
#206
Hi engedi1,

the Spiro Weich bow better than the Mittel, at least the 4/4 string sets (but also the 3/4 as much as I can say from my Clevinger EUB comparing old Mittel with new Weich). The Weich gets sooner to the point where bowing is not too scratchy. Needs about two weeks, the first three days will have the most drastic change in sound (very metallic first).

The Spiro Weich 4/4 (S42W) seems a bit weak on E and A first (after using the Spiro Mittel), the bass must accomodate to the new tension like the player. The regular Compas 180 might have a little bit more tension than the Spiro Weich 4/4, but not much and I may be wrong, hard to say, not much different. Some use a Mittel E with the Weich set.

I think one of the problems with bow grip is a highly polished surface. The Innovation metal wraps (and also the Compas 180) are not as polished as Tomastik or Pirastro strings, which is not too nice for the left hand, but better for bow grip.
I polished the Innovations with fine steel wool from the nut to the end of the fingerboard, so I have both, smooth surface for the left hand and good bow grip.
I also thought of making the Spiro Weich a bit rougher between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge by using very fine sandpaper with very low pressure. I only tried it a bit because I was anxious to break the outer winding (I broke the winding on a Compas 180 SUIT high C that way with more pressure). There was not much difference, but it seems to got a bit better. If you still think bowing the Weich is too hard you might want to try that (on a single string first of course).
But it also might be the problem of finding the best rosin for the string. I still use Nymans, I was not happy with some harder rosin which was also old, but there might be better rosin for this or that kind of string. My one year old Nymans is better (softer) than the rest of my 15 year old Nymans.

The Innovation 140B (a bit less tension than Compas 180) is much better for bowing, round and soft tone. For the Compas 180 I think your bow control must be very good. Anything doing not the best way will be clearly audible. The 140B is much more forgiving and even the Spiro Weich is better from this point of view.

I would have sticked with the Spiro Weich if I would not use the high C (on a 4/4 bass which is rather stupid, I know) for 50/50 pizz/arco. The Compas 180 is more pizz, the 140B more arco, but both still hybrid.

Since Spiros could be get used cheap and the 140B is cheap via mail order (i.e. StringExpress UK) I would think you might get both and try them out. Feel free to ask me again what to do if the pizz sustain on the 140B A and E is too short.

Jörg
 
#207
Thanks so much Jorg. Responses like yours are why I love talkbass! Sightful help from someone with direct experience to the issues I have! Love it! I know what you mean about bow control and the compass 180's. If your weight is not in the string at all times you get a big screeech! They do get a pretty nice bowed tone once you get them going. In my music school days I used D'addario's and Spiro as an orchestral player. I had a very dark bass the Spiro mittels sounded good. With my new hybrid bass I am not so sure. My 10 year old Mittel set sounded great on pizz but to bright with the bow. I am thinking Weichs will bow better and still give me some of that pizz awesomeness. If they are similar in tension to the 180's, that sound ideal to me. Just might have to order a set...Thanks!
 
#208
My pleasure, engedi1.
Once I read one of your postings about the Compas 180 and I thought I might try them. So I just give back what I received earlier.

If the Spiro Weich are still too bright for your bass you might try Innovation 140B (or 140H if you want more of an old school pizz) and if still too bright Evah Weich.

Also a nice soft bowing sound with less tension has the SuperSensitive Supreme. The Pinnacle has more highs like the Spiro Mittel but with low tension, so not what you need. Seems like they both are a low tension version of the two Spiros with some character of their own. But they are both rather thin. (I never tested the sets only the high Cs.)

But checking the Spiro Weich first is the best idea. You can even use the E and A with the 140B D and G.

Do you have a standard 3/4 string scale or something longer or shorter?
 
#209
Hi all - I have a set of well-used animas on now that I got as a trade. Need to buy a new set since the G and A look like breakage is possible in the next few months (based on browsing this incredible thread resource).

My question is this - the consensus seems to be that blues are better suited for pizz playing (which is 99% of what I do), but I cannot find any info about what they feel like - are they similar to the animas, or are the windings very different? If anyone has a close-up photo of blues that I can compare to animas, that would be great!

I love the feel and sound of the animas and most likely will stick with them, but want to make sure I fully understand the differrences in payability. Most of the discussion about the differences focuses on arco, but not on pizz playing.

thanks all.....
 
#210
Jorg, my bass is standard 3/4 41.25 inches (104.78 cm) I am really interested to try out spiro weich as I really liked the amplified tone I was getting using spiro Mittels. I want that tone, just with less tension and a better arco tone. I am debating ordering my set with the Mittel E but I think I will try the weich E first and order the mittel later if the Weich E doesn't work out after a couple of months of settling in. Thanks for your wisdom friend!
 
#211
Hi engedi1,

the Spiro Weich is less growly than the Spiro Mittel, but better for bowing.
Since the Spiro 4/4 has a different string construction than the 3/4 (both Mittel and Weich) you might want to try the 4/4 Mittel on your 3/4 scale. The tension drop should be almost the same as the one you get with 3/4 Weich. You can simulate the tension drop by tuning the 3/4 Mittel a half tone down.

I liked my Spiro Mittel 4/4 on the 109 cm scale being tuned a half tone down, but since I already play a 4/4 I could not change to a string designed for a longer scale. You can.

Since you want both, better bowing and the Mittel sound, the best compromise would be the 4/4 Mittel, since the lower tension (on the thinner strings) might bow a bit better. But it's hard to say. If you can give up some growl the 3/4 Weich might be better for bowing. For an even lower tension (probably a bit too low on the E) you can try the 4/4 Weich or the 3/4 Solos (sound a bit closer to Mittels than Weich, I think) tuned down to orchestral pitch (with a bit less tension on the lower end, check the tension specs).

At the end you only can try. Maybe you try what you can get used in the classifieds and decide from there if it fits or what to try next.

For tension, first experiment with your existing set by tuning them down a half or whole step. (half step: 3/4 Weich, 4/4 Mittel, whole step: 4/4 Weich, 3/4 Solos)
Then you only have to decide which sound you want, Weich or Mittel/Solo.

Good luck,

Jörg
 
#212
Regarding Spiros, even though this is a Velvets thread, if you're wanting to mix-and-match, here is a chart I posted in another thread that has the comparative tension if each Spiro were strung on the same 3/4 scale bass, doing the math to account for differences in scale length, keeping in mind that Velvets advertise most of their strings as rated at @ 25 kg or @ 55 lbs tension per string:

Comparative Tensions of Different Sets of Spirocores,
If Each Were Installed on a 3/4 106 cm (41.73 inches)
Mensure Bass at Orchestra Pitch (all in pounds)
Code: 
			G	D	A	E	Total
S42 4/4 Light		55.3	59.3	61.4	63.4	239.4
S42 4/4 Medium		61.4	65.5	69.6	69.6	266.1
S42 4/4 Heavy		73.7	73.7	75.8	77.8	301.0
4/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch	50.3	55.3	55.3	55.3	216.2
3/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch	56.0	57.8	57.8	57.8	229.4
3885 3/4 Light		60.6	61.7	63.9	66.1	252.3
3885 3/4 Medium		67.2	68.3	70.5	72.8	278.8
 
#213
iiipopes said:
Regarding Spiros, even though this is a Velvets thread, if you're wanting to mix-and-match, here is a chart I posted in another thread that has the comparative tension if each Spiro were strung on the same 3/4 scale bass, doing the math to account for differences in scale length, keeping in mind that Velvets advertise most of their strings as rated at @ 25 kg or @ 55 lbs tension per string:

Comparative Tensions of Different Sets of Spirocores,
If Each Were Installed on a 3/4 106 cm (41.73 inches)
Mensure Bass at Orchestra Pitch (all in pounds)
Code: 
			G	D	A	E	Total
S42 4/4 Light		55.2	59.3	61.4	63.4	239.3
S42 4/4 Medium		61.4	65.8	69.6	69.6	266.4
S42 4/4 Heavy		73.7	73.7	75.8	77.8	301.0
4/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch	55.3	55.3	55.3	56.9	222.8
3/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch	56.0	57.8	57.8	57.8	229.4
3885 3/4 Light		60.6	61.7	63.9	66.1	252.3
3885 3/4 Medium		67.2	68.3	70.5	72.8	278.8
Click to expand...

That's a very informative chart 3POPES. Thanks! I'd like to put it on the DB String page of my web site... ;)
 
#216
bherman said:
Hi all - I have a set of well-used animas on now that I got as a trade. Need to buy a new set since the G and A look like breakage is possible in the next few months (based on browsing this incredible thread resource).

My question is this - the consensus seems to be that blues are better suited for pizz playing (which is 99% of what I do), but I cannot find any info about what they feel like - are they similar to the animas, or are the windings very different? If anyone has a close-up photo of blues that I can compare to animas, that would be great!

I love the feel and sound of the animas and most likely will stick with them, but want to make sure I fully understand the differrences in payability. Most of the discussion about the differences focuses on arco, but not on pizz playing.

thanks all.....
Click to expand...

Giving my earlier post a bump here - it got stranded in the middle of a long (but interesting) subthread on tension. Anyone have info on Blues to share?
 
#217
I just put a used set of animas on after having EPs on (I was doing orchestra auditions and they were good in that context). Man they feel good and remind me why you spend the extra.
I had compas 180s on for a while a few years ago and even though installation did indeed royally suck - as did a couple of unwindings which Nuno responded most excellently to - I would still buy velvet again. The sound and feel is fantastic IMO.
I was surprised how well the animas bow given their reputation. Probably not a pro audition string, but otherwise not bad at all. A bit like guts where pressing is not forgiven at all, but if you let your arm weight sink in a bit, the rewards are there.
 
#218
I'm back to using a full set of Animas, for now. For the record, I play mostly old jazz and string band music with some "out" stuff peppered in. The are really nice strings, but I've had tons of maintenance (breaking, buzzing, unwinding) issues with them, mostly on the high strings. Also, as strange as this might sound to steel guys, they are STILL too stiff for me/my nice sounding plywood bass for slap and even some pizz (tension is comfy, though.) I busk / play unamplifed a lot and my hands are getting killed.

I've already done the Gamut Gut thang twice, which are easy on my hands and good for slap but not fast enough pizz for me, and always go back to the Animas as a compromise, so I figured it was time to explore other options, namely nylons.

I ordered some Golden Slaps I'm going to try, as they've gotten good reviews as a pizz string. I'll keep the Anima E on for now, as my bass and hands really like it (only one on the box the feels "just right" currently.) I'm actually feeling pretty confident about the Slaps for D+G, its the A I'm worried about. Maybe plain the gut As and D have terrified me away :help: but I just find it hard to believe any unwound string that big could sound as clear and be as fast as I need. For 40ish bucks, its worth a try? Could always just put the Anima A back on. I might end up keeping it 2+2 just so I have a pair that can sound nice bowed! :hiding:

So has anyone actually done this? Used Velvets as the "wound gut" and Nylon as the "plain gut"?
 

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