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Verdine White Tell me it aint so!! {:>(. ..
- Thread starter bassramos
- Start date
Wow, who gave you that idea? In fact, even though a lot of todays (pop) music maybe be "horrible" to a lot of musicians and there are a lot of technical tricks used, most pop artists have backing bands that play live and on a very, very high level.
Check out guys like Ethan Farmer backing Christina Aguilera. Todays pop rhythm sections are doing a lot of work, and they are doing it live. In fact, those guys get hired to play SYNTH bass live on a keyboard instead of having it pre-recorded.
The thing is:
1) I saw EWF perform on the Hitman Returns concert from David Foster, and it was really obvious that Nathan East was really playing the lines because of
a) the sound (stayed the same like in every song)
b) two bassist playing, only one heard
c) like DWBass said, the hand movements didn't match at all!
2) From some of the videos posted on here you can tell that he is a horrible player. The instructional video, the various bass solos... Sorry, but to me they show a lack of even the most basic skills, timing, note choice, etc. From what I can see/hear there, I can't even imagine him having played the lines on the original records. If it was him, he was probably told every note he was supposed to play.
Alternatively, he may have aged VERY badly (for whatever reasons).
What I find astonishing is the amount of denial in this thread:
Yes, he might have been part of a band that gave you the music that was an important part of the "soundtrack of your life". Yes, he may have a great stage presence.
But there is very, very obvious, undeniable proof in all of these Youtube videos that he is not a good bass player at all. (At least not anymore.)
Now it's funny that he is being very open about his (interviews, etc). That's why to me, he is actually NOT "faking" it -- he is being who is and expresses himself the way he wants to express himself. I can really appreciate that and I can find nothing dishonest about his approach. I think he sees himself more as a "performer with a bass in his hands" than a real "bass player". And he certainly plays the "role" he gave himself very well.
It just seems that a lot of people in this thread put him on a pedestal and try to defend a position that Verdine himself doesn't even try to claim.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
of course there are a lot of great professional players today
and, there are plenty of shredders who have awesome technique too
but, unless you have watched it over time you have no frame of reference - the general quality of music has declined both in musicianship and production - it clearly tracks with tech assistance being available
2 generations ago there was a live venue on every corner that actually paid, the competition was fierce and folks worked their asses off to be the best
oh. and BTW, get off my lawn
and, there are plenty of shredders who have awesome technique too
but, unless you have watched it over time you have no frame of reference - the general quality of music has declined both in musicianship and production - it clearly tracks with tech assistance being available
2 generations ago there was a live venue on every corner that actually paid, the competition was fierce and folks worked their asses off to be the best
oh. and BTW, get off my lawn
I don't know. Nor does Verdine, obviously.
After looking at those videos, all I can guess is that either he has had arthritis in his hands for a few decades (I can't imagine he has any other health problems, he seems very fit for a man of his age and is perfectly lucid in conversation), or alternatively, he never played on any Earth Wind and Fire records and has been ghosted throughout his entire career which is possible and has happened before (Alec John Such).
I don't think it's a case of him not caring about the music and just focusing on the show. A good bass player can get rusty if he/she doesn't care / practise / has mental health / substance abuse issues but he/she doesn't become a bad player. Jaco may have become a shadow of his former self in his decline but what is shown in these videos is so far removed from the playing on the albums it's unreal.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
With all due respect can you prove this? Would be interesting to many I'm sure if you could.
Oh no, there's no way I could prove it, and to be fair I never said that was the case - I said it's a possibility although my post did come across as a little negative. Innocent until proven guilty as far as I'm concerned.
What do you think? Could he have been ghosted?
Well, since I listened to everything from Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Cannonball Adderley, Motown, Stax, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Weather Report, Mozart, Bach, Schönberg, Jaco, Brian Wilson, Steely Dan, Marcus Miller, Cachao to Korn, Tool, Frank Zappa, Maceo Parker, John Mayer, Hiromi, Chakha Khan, Stevie Wonder, Focus, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Pink Floyd, James Brown, blahblahblah ... (you get the point) ... I like to think that I have a frame of reference. In a way, I actually "worked" on developing one. To me, having an understanding of the development of music is a very important part of being a well rounded musician.
All of music is based on tradition and to be able to decide at any moment what a given piece of music "needs" or "wants" from you as a player, having that "frame of reference" across as many styles (and even art forms) as possible is indispensable, in my opinion.
I believe I understand the general direction you are coming from, but I also think that you are painting things with a very broad brush, using only the colors "black & white".
I had actually written a lengthy, detailed response on how I don't agree with your POV and how I think the logical connection to the topic at hand (Verdine White's playing) doesn't work. But in the end I decided that it will lead to nothing fruitful. I guess in real life, we could engage in a great discussion and would likely find out that we agree on just as many (or more) things than we disagree on. But on the Internet these exchanges get so tedious and tiresome, full of misunderstandings and endless repetition. For an example, just refer to how Jauqo's quote (and reply) totally took Belka's comment about Verdine "having been ghosted (or not!!!)" out of context.
I actually already regret writing this and my last response - even though I realize that I'm the long-winded one.
... I do respect your opinion, so please when in doubt while reading this post, attribute it to my horrible laziness. Or my young age. Or bad upbringing and lack of good manners.
Yes, Sir. Sorry, Sir.
on several counts
so, reading your background I'm sure you're a good player - but, after playing with a lot of 'good' players over the years some are better than others
attitude is worth 100bpm ALL DAY LONG
bass is a supporting instrument and chops players are usually not first-call
the music you are criticizing is classic (and I'm principally a jazz/DB player myself) - not sure much of the top selling records of the last 20 yrs will have that longevity - with a few exceptions
it's just 'good' music - as Miles said....
so, reading your background I'm sure you're a good player - but, after playing with a lot of 'good' players over the years some are better than others
attitude is worth 100bpm ALL DAY LONG
bass is a supporting instrument and chops players are usually not first-call
the music you are criticizing is classic (and I'm principally a jazz/DB player myself) - not sure much of the top selling records of the last 20 yrs will have that longevity - with a few exceptions
it's just 'good' music - as Miles said....
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
I really don't know.
For the record I did not Belksa's comment out of context at all. I just asked a question.
One last clarification:
I'm not (and I actually think noone here until now has been) criticizing the music of EWF at all.
I was just answering to the original post about Verdine White after seeing some videos that lead me to believe that there is a real possibility (!!!) that he doesn't play this stuff live, because in the videos he seems to have big problems playing the instrument "good enough" to perform the music in question at the level that people usually associate with him and EWF.
I was also disagreeing with what I thought (!!!) you were implying: That somehow people from a certain generation would automatically assume that "EWF's music must be fake, because today's music is fake". (Generalizing here, for brevity).
Whether Verdine White plays or has played or composed the bass lines to the music live or in the studio is not at all connected to the music of EWF being "good" or "classic".
Just as having "amazing chops" at your disposal isn't relevant to the quality of the music, as long as you can let the music speak the way it's supposed to speak when you're actually performing it. The first-call players are the ones that make the music feel good for everybody.
JAUQO III-X said:
Jauqo, I think that what you did was a 100% textbook example of taking something out of context, but there's no point in discussing that here. Belka has already responded in a very patient and mature fashion.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
No I did not take anything out of context, I asked Belka a question. And I'm asking you and any one else here with the accusations,that Verdine White has issues with his playing and whether he's actually playing or not live or on the recordings. My questions are legitimate ones based off of people in this thread making claims that he is faking things.
TB member Corinpills said he very recently did a gig where EWF was on the bill and with his own eyes and ears live did not walk away with what those here who have not even been near the stage of a EWF concert seem to adamantly think.
How can corinpills explain what so many of you here who are the experts on EWF's stage setup and Verdines performance explain how the show was changed when they knew that a tb member was on the bill.
I think it's time for the Verdine experts with their accusations of faking and other issues with his playing step up to the plate and set things strait.
And for the record I put no musician on a god like pedestal.
Been a while since I've interjected! As for corinpills observation.......question? Was it a full scale show with all the bells and whistles or a scaled down show where most members 'had' to play live? In any case, I'm quite sure Verdine is capable of playing the songs he's been associated with for over 40+ years. Anyone for that matter who has played the same songs for that length of time could probably play them in their sleep. So I don't doubt he 'can't' play EWF songs live. corinpills is not the only person who has seen them live either (Doesn't matter whether he was backstage or not)! I think I'm a pretty intelligent person and a pretty decent bassist. I've seen several shows and watched VW very intently! My educated opinion is that he does NOT play live for the majority of the show. It obvious when he does as 'his' sound was way different than from the rest of the show. When he's not playing live, his fretting hand stays put at the first fret while he's doing all that dancing around.
When we were all starting out and weren't very good, Verdine stood out. In addition, there are some classic basslines on all those EWF records. As we progressed into better and more accomplished bassists, our skills frame of reference are enhanced. When we see VW play now, we cringe. You just can't lump him the same group as a Victa or Marcus and the like. It's ok though. We still have those records to fall back on.
I think we all have made our points and it's time to drop it! Bottom line is he sometimes plays live and sometimes mimes. It is what it is.
When we were all starting out and weren't very good, Verdine stood out. In addition, there are some classic basslines on all those EWF records. As we progressed into better and more accomplished bassists, our skills frame of reference are enhanced. When we see VW play now, we cringe. You just can't lump him the same group as a Victa or Marcus and the like. It's ok though. We still have those records to fall back on.
I think we all have made our points and it's time to drop it! Bottom line is he sometimes plays live and sometimes mimes. It is what it is.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Dave my thing is it's time for those who carry the torch to totally discredit Verdine to come on with it. Prove that he does not ever play live.
I've seen my share of so called live concerts where the singers, guitarists, bassists were not synced.
Not at you or any one in particular but so what if some aspects of his show he may not be playing, when it's all said and done he is an entertainer.
Yes, you did. Belka did not "accuse" Verdine of anything or was "stating facts", but the way you quoted him (incompletely and selectively = out of context) him made it look very much like he did that.
We (Belka and I) both said that from looking at the Youtube videos it does seem POSSIBLE that the rumours about Verdine are true. Look at Belkas reply to your post. There is a fine but very important difference.
We don't claim to KNOW or be able to PROVE anything, we just state what our IMPRESSION is after viewing the videos.
Sorry, but I think that either your reading comprehension isn't very good or you're trying to create aggression.
In fact, you are the one who's accusing people of something they didn't do. At the very least, you are directing your frustration at the wrong people in this thread.
You are the one who's getting offended by people saying it like it is - Verdine White doesn't look very good AS A BASSPLAYER in the Youtube videos posted in this thread. That's all I (and I'd think: Belka, too) was talking about, and I was expressing myself respectfully. You can take those videos, make a new thread and run a poll on them, if you like.
Your defensive reaction seems very ironic to me after your behaviour in threads about certain other bassplayers. You're applying double standards. (I know you think you don't.)
I have to admit, I fell for your bait this time, but after this post, say what you want: I've made my points. If you can't read, understand or interpret them correctly, I can't help you.
I agree, and it's very close to what I said in my previous posts, before you even entered the thread:
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Oooh geesh, I don't want any trouble, fellas.
I can only report what I saw/heard. It was a full- scale corporate gig in an an 800 person theater in Hartford. I didn't see the whole show (I was setting up for our set and ran over for 15 minutes), I wasn't backstage as much as on the side of the stage and I wasn't on Verdine's side, to be fair. I was 50 feet away from him when he was playing, so if he was faking it, I suppose I could have been fooled.
My educated guess would be that there's some reinforcement in the low end on some of the more choreographed numbers. I think they come out and do the EWF thing or the first few songs with lots of entertainment value (which is a huge part of tehir legacy and one of the reasons they command so much money on the corporate circuit. There are plenty of bands that had radio hits in the same time period who aren't as appealing because there's no show. Hire EWF and you know Betty from accounting is going to know the songs and like the dancing around). I believe that Verdine is probably still a very capable bassist, but it's possibly not as a big of a priority for him at this point. What does he have to prove to us?
I realize it's a music forum, but let's not get too twisted up about the gulf between the music and show business. Maybe he sits at home and plays along to those great old Ramsey Lewis albums he played on back in the day, but his "job" is to be that freaky dude on stage. And it gets complex when one considers that perhaps the financial well- being of his older brother Maurice may be tied into the continued business of the EWF brand he established.
I can only report what I saw/heard. It was a full- scale corporate gig in an an 800 person theater in Hartford. I didn't see the whole show (I was setting up for our set and ran over for 15 minutes), I wasn't backstage as much as on the side of the stage and I wasn't on Verdine's side, to be fair. I was 50 feet away from him when he was playing, so if he was faking it, I suppose I could have been fooled.
My educated guess would be that there's some reinforcement in the low end on some of the more choreographed numbers. I think they come out and do the EWF thing or the first few songs with lots of entertainment value (which is a huge part of tehir legacy and one of the reasons they command so much money on the corporate circuit. There are plenty of bands that had radio hits in the same time period who aren't as appealing because there's no show. Hire EWF and you know Betty from accounting is going to know the songs and like the dancing around). I believe that Verdine is probably still a very capable bassist, but it's possibly not as a big of a priority for him at this point. What does he have to prove to us?
I realize it's a music forum, but let's not get too twisted up about the gulf between the music and show business. Maybe he sits at home and plays along to those great old Ramsey Lewis albums he played on back in the day, but his "job" is to be that freaky dude on stage. And it gets complex when one considers that perhaps the financial well- being of his older brother Maurice may be tied into the continued business of the EWF brand he established.
I'm really depressed about this. I discovered this discussion after having doubts about the ability of Verdine as a bassist. I love EWF and have great respect for anyone who has played for them. I have watched many videos of EWF time and time again and wonder why does Verdine seem to always position his fretting hand around F# or G in almost every case and it does not move much from there.
One of the original September videos show him just banging on the bass without relation to how the song is played. I get the showmanship thing and love that about Verdine, and I think he really played during EWF's very early years but that style is nowhere near what we hear on their best recordings.
How can these solos we see on Youtube be so awful after so many years of playing for EWF? I don't get it.
I've read this entire thread and appreciated everyone's point of view.
One of the original September videos show him just banging on the bass without relation to how the song is played. I get the showmanship thing and love that about Verdine, and I think he really played during EWF's very early years but that style is nowhere near what we hear on their best recordings.
How can these solos we see on Youtube be so awful after so many years of playing for EWF? I don't get it.
I've read this entire thread and appreciated everyone's point of view.
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