Verellen Octal

[baxter_x]

Most are being mass produced in places where labor cost are less of a factor and possibly a class D amp is the cheapest to make?

Pretty much like class AB. It's not related to the class of amplifier. And you bashed that topology for no reason.

When all that is available is Class D this will of course be the market leader.

It is already the case...

 

[No such thing]

Pretty much like class AB. It's not related to the class of amplifier. And you bashed that topology for no reason.


It is already the case...

Not bashing at all. Economy of manufacture is the reason for market dominance.

But were going in circles here.

I just want more options, and glad theres still some.

 

[agedhorse]

Not bashing at all. Economy of manufacture is the reason for market dominance.

Yet that’s not “the reason”. If it was, we wouldn’t be doing as well as we are with class D amps.

Lead sled amps can and are built in lower cost offshore regions for less cost than many class D amps yet these lead sled amps have also suffered from minuscule sales.

Players want small and light weight, and in many cases they are willing to pay a premium for it.

 

[baxter_x]

Not bashing at all.

Plenty of milktoast Class D on the market as is.

.....

 

[tom-g]

Not bashing at all. Economy of manufacture is the reason for market dominance.

But were going in circles here.

I just want more options, and glad theres still some.

The product you are trying to sell needs to appeal to the market, meaning you need to sell something people will buy. Where a product is produced doesn‘t necessarily depend on who can produce it the cheapest. Sometimes specialized manufacturing is close to nonexistent in the country of choice, see Apple iPhone.

 

[Challanger2]

@agedhorse would there be any concern using the Verellen octals in Mesa heads like the 400, prodigy or strategy 88, assuming they were installed by a qualified tech?

 

[No such thing]

The product you are trying to sell needs to appeal to the market, meaning you need to sell something people will buy. Where a product is produced doesn‘t necessarily depend on who can produce it the cheapest. Sometimes specialized manufacturing is close to nonexistent in the country of choice, see Apple iPhone.

I think comparing phones and bass amps is a bit apples and oranges.

Different markets too and to a degree one is more of a necessity than the other.

Class D remains dominant because its what manufacturers are making the most of.
It started out differently, but here we are.

 

[agedhorse]

@agedhorse would there be any concern using the Verellen octals in Mesa heads like the 400, prodigy or strategy 88, assuming they were installed by a qualified tech?

I don't know, and without a lot more information there's no way to know one way or the other.

The concept is interesting, and if they can pull it off it would be another option for players.

 

[Wasnex]

Most are being mass produced in places where labor cost are less of a factor and possibly a class D amp is the cheapest to make?

Class D is cheaper to make? I wouldn't be surprised if this is true.

However, if a company decided to make something other than a Class D amp, they would likely use the same factories and workers. In general, whoever can deliver the required quality at the lowest price gets the job.

 

[baxter_x]

Class D remains dominant because its what manufacturers are making the most of.
It started out differently, but here we are.

And why are they making those the most?
Because the market is definitely interested in a powerful lightweight amplifier that weights nothing.
I don't see any reasons to chose a heavy class AB amp whereas you can the same performance in a way lighter package....

 

[agedhorse]

Class D remains dominant because its what manufacturers are making the most of.
It started out differently, but here we are.

Class D is dominant because that's what players have been asking for, and this goes back 20+ years too. As class D got better and better, it became harder to sell the lead sled models because players simply weren't buying them when they had a choice. I watched lead sled sales decline to almost nothing when we did offer both platforms... players made their choice crystal clear too.

You don't have to agree with it, but I lived this very thing with three different companies.

 

[tom-g]

I think comparing phones and bass amps is a bit apples and oranges.

Different markets too and to a degree one is more of a necessity than the other.

Class D remains dominant because its what manufacturers are making the most of.
It started out differently, but here we are.

Please reread my post. I did not compare anything. I gave an example for a reason why products are not necessarily produced where some people wish they were.

 

[Wasnex]

class AB doesn't have to be heavyweight

AFAIK SMPS tends to be a lot lighter than a liner power supply.

I do believe Class AB and Class G/H output circuits do tend to be heavier than class D. AFAIK this largely relates to Class Ds higher efficiency at full power. Basically Class D generates less heat for a given watt. Reducing the amount of heat produced reduces the need for large/heavy heat sinks.

 

[agedhorse]

AFAIK SMPS tends to be a lot lighter than a liner power supply.

I do believe Class AB and Class G/H output circuits do tend to be heavier than class D. AFAIK this largely relates to Class Ds higher efficiency at full power. Basically Class D generates less heat for a given watt. Reducing the amount of heat produced reduces the need for large/heavy heat sinks.

This is correct.

 

[baxter_x]

reduces the need for large/heavy heat sinks.

And those big transformers isn't it?

 

[agedhorse]

And those big transformers isn't it?

The switchmode power supply reduces the size of the power transformer for equivalent performance due to the increased operating (switching) frequency. Because the magnetics decreases in size and the higher operating frequency reduces the number of primary turns, the lengths of the primary and secondary wires decreases which decreases copper losses and improves performance.

Incidentally, this same concept has been used for decades on aircraft, which operate at 400Hz instead of 50 or 60Hz, though not using SMPS but conventional 400Hz sine wave power generation and distribution. Generators, motors, actuators all shrink in size by increasing the frequency to 400Hz.

Why is a frequency of 400 Hz used in aircraft electrical systems?

www.sab-cable.com

 

[Wasnex]

And those big transformers isn't it?

The transformer is part of the power supply, which I considered a separate structure from the output circuit.

Linear power supply uses a relatively large transformer. SMPS uses a much smaller transformer.

Class AB can use either type of power supply. Likewise, you could use a big heavy linear power supply with a Class D output section.

As an example, both the Epifani UL902C and UL502 were class D amps. The UL502 had a linear power supply and the UL902C had a switching (SMPS) power supply.

 

[Sparky Mark]

AFAIK SMPS tends to be a lot lighter than a liner power supply.

I do believe Class AB and Class G/H output circuits do tend to be heavier than class D. AFAIK this largely relates to Class Ds higher efficiency at full power. Basically Class D generates less heat for a given watt. Reducing the amount of heat produced reduces the need for large/heavy heat sinks.

Agreed, but even with class AB outputs, the fact my amps use SMPS means they are still lightweight at around 3kg. When the output sections were made class D, another half kg was saved.

 

[baxter_x]

Incidentally, this same concept has been used for decades on aircraft, which operate at 400Hz instead of 50 or 60Hz, though not using SMPS but conventional 400Hz sine wave power generation and distribution. Generators, motors, actuators all shrink in size by increasing the frequency to 400Hz.

So..... If I understand correctly, to reduce the size of the transformer, you can increase frequency? It is directly related?

 

[agedhorse]

So..... If I understand correctly, to reduce the size of the transformer, you can increase frequency? It is directly related?

Yes.