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Vertical cab stacking---the only way to play

#282
Maybe this has already been addressed...

The vertical stack eliminates comb filtering for the audience since they will (presumably) not be moving back and forth in the vertical plane.

But assuming you as the bass player are not moving around a great deal to start with, comb filtering is not a big deal from the player's point of view.

So, is the primary benefit of the vertical stack just getting the speaker up near your ear where you can hear the mids and highs?
 
#285
Cristo said:
Maybe this has already been addressed...

The vertical stack eliminates comb filtering for the audience since they will (presumably) not be moving back and forth in the vertical plane.

But assuming you as the bass player are not moving around a great deal to start with, comb filtering is not a big deal from the player's point of view.

So, is the primary benefit of the vertical stack just getting the speaker up near your ear where you can hear the mids and highs?
Click to expand...

[I think maybe someone did not read the whole thread.]
 
#286
I have read the entire thread and still can't decide if my 410 115 stack is wrong. Is the audience hearing crap that I am not? Would I be better off with 2 115s stacked? I would need 3 115s to equal the cone area of my 410 and 115.

I have been playing with out PA support mostly since I got the stack and thought it would give a better sound to the crowd since it is stacked. I have always heard a point source for bass is best but is a 410 and 115 stack not pointy enough?
 
#287
I guess you could do what was suggested to me. Take your 4x10 plug it in. Walk around it and see if you hear anything change as you across the cab.

Plug your 15 in walk around it. See if you notice any difference as you walk around that since that shouldn't suffer from the comb filtering since it's a single speaker
 
#288
higgi said:
I have always heard a point source for bass is best but is a 410 and 115 stack not pointy enough?
Click to expand...
In the low frequencies all but the very largest subwoofer arrays are point sources, as a line source is at least 3 wavelengths long. At 100 Hz that's about 35 feet. The problems with drivers place side by side, including those in your 4x10, is in the midrange and high frequencies.
 
#290
greenboy said:
20-25 Hz indeed! To read this is to chortle. And those whom questioned this advice were right to do so from another perspective as well, as there are relatively few systems spec'd to deliver big SPL at those frequencies. There are a few different schools of thoughts on kick drum and bass mixing but this excerpt from a Invalid Link Removed is worthy of interest:

"The kick drum frequency can be a fundamental problem for many people as they have a misconception as to where this frequency actually is. I will not say that the fundamental frequency is exactly at 80 Hz, but usually the 80 Hz, 1/3 octave equalizer control, will bring more of the kicks thump out than say 50 Hz, 63 Hz or 100 Hz. Usually, this fundamental is somewhere between about 72 and 80 Hz.

It is not always easy to get a great sound from a kick drum; however, most people reproduce the characteristic kick drum sound established in an LA studio by New York drummer, Steve Gadd. You can hear similar kick drum tunings in most genres of music today, and the reason is very simple. It fits, and it does not step on the vocalist or rhythm instruments. The sound consists of the fundamental frequency and the second harmonic that is one octave above of course, but subsequent harmonics are suppressed. This is what the proper use of the pillow in the kick drum results in. (If you would recall the early sound of John Bonham´s kick drum sound in Led Zeppelin. It rang quite a bit, and just wasn't tight by today's standards.)

If you would like to dry up and tighten a kick drum in a mix, insert an equalizer into the kick channel, roll it off below 40 Hz; boost it +4 to +6 dB at 80 Hz; and leave 100, 125, and 160 Hz flat (0 dB). Set 200 Hz to -3 dB, 250 Hz to 6 dB. Cut 315 Hz through 500 Hz completely (-12 dB). Set 800 Hz to 6 dB, and leave 1 kHz through 5 kHz flat. Then cut 6.3 kHz to 4 dB, 8 kHz to 8 dB, and cut 10 kHz, 12.5 kHz and 16 kHz all the way (-12 dB). This equalization curve can help when wanting more punch out of your kick drum in a mix, but other problems may arise when you choose where to place the loudspeaker."
Click to expand...

I just copied this to my FOH guy. :bassist:
 
#291
musicman7722 said:
I just copied this to my FOH guy. :bassist:
Click to expand...

Deaf EQing to numbers is a dangerous thing.

I grant you there is some generic quality to a BD's sonic character, but with regards to EQ, this surely depends on the size of the drum, type of heads, number of heads, muffling, beaters, genre of music....

A front vented 18" BD for jazz or fusion is not likely to be the same as a 26" double headed Bonham style BD. Steve Gadd's BD sound may be a yardstick of some sort, Peter Erskine is a different reference. There are many ways to tune up the variety of BDs for various types of music. Even your drum machines recognise that.

Then there is the sonic character of the mic you use and how you mic it (inside, outside, PZM, dynamic, May system, closed mic ). I can tell you I have used all of these live and in studios and they require different treatment.

What you may want to look for is to avoid:

cross with other bass frequency instruments
hollow or papery BD tone

What you may want to acheive or not achieve:

snap to BD
boom to BD
thud to BD

and you EQ this accordingly depending on the sonic character appropriate to the music and the drum and the mic you want to achieve as opposed to EQing to numeric patterns.
 
#292
synaesthesia said:
Deaf EQing to numbers is a dangerous thing.

I grant you there is some generic quality to a BD's sonic character, but with regards to EQ, this surely depends on the size of the drum, type of heads, number of heads, muffling, beaters, genre of music....

A front vented 18" BD for jazz or fusion is not likely to be the same as a 26" double headed Bonham style BD. Steve Gadd's BD sound may be a yardstick of some sort, Peter Erskine is a different reference. There are many ways to tune up the variety of BDs for various types of music. Even your drum machines recognise that.

Then there is the sonic character of the mic you use and how you mic it (inside, outside, PZM, dynamic, May system, closed mic ). I can tell you I have used all of these live and in studios and they require different treatment.

What you may want to look for is to avoid:

cross with other bass frequency instruments
hollow or papery BD tone

What you may want to acheive or not achieve:

snap to BD
boom to BD
thud to BD

and you EQ this accordingly depending on the sonic character appropriate to the music and the drum and the mic you want to achieve as opposed to EQing to numeric patterns.
Click to expand...

i can't agree enough.
applying eq to anything based on numerical suggestions is a recipe for disaster. there are far too many variables involved.
 
#293
A9X said:
WHHW or WTWT and disconnect the "bottom" horn (or turn LPad all the way down).
Click to expand...

I have two identical cabs, 2-way 15" woofer and tweeter, with both drivers lined up vertically in each cab.

To understand this correctly...if I'm engaging both tweeters, my setup should be:
W
T
T
W

And if I'm disengaging the tweeter from the bottom cab:
T
W
T
W

Any advantage to getting both woofers closer, again if bottom tweeter is disengaged?
T
W
W
T
 
#295
The only cabs I have that are even close to being sized for vertical stacking are my pair of 1212L.

Which are odd-ducks to begin with.

Funny, I was just thinking about how they would stack when I found this thread.

I was thinking of trying them with one side-firing speaker pointed up, the other one pointed down, making a wierd-ass folded horn in the middle.

I guess I will, now, but I was wondering if y'all thought that was workable, or just ridiculous...???...;)



Alternatively, I do have another choice: Henry 8x8. Already pre-stacked on one biga** box.
 
#296
Chef said:
The only cabs I have that are even close to being sized for vertical stacking are my pair of 1212L.

Which are odd-ducks to begin with.

Funny, I was just thinking about how they would stack when I found this thread.

I was thinking of trying them with one side-firing speaker pointed up, the other one pointed down, making a wierd-ass folded horn in the middle.

I guess I will, now, but I was wondering if y'all thought that was workable, or just ridiculous...???...;)



...
Click to expand...

Definitely worth trying -- of course you'll get less low end than either stacking them horizontally or with both on the floor side-by-side.

Let us know how they sound.
 
#299
You misunderstand: I've tried them so it looks like a 412.
I'll experiment with some verticals after a while, tho it's not often I need that kind of firepower, and I just scored an NV215....
 
#300
Chef said:
You misunderstand: I've tried them so it looks like a 412.
I'll experiment with some verticals after a while, tho it's not often I need that kind of firepower, and I just scored an NV215....
Click to expand...

I vertically stack my two 1212Ls at my last gig. I really didn't need the fire power, just wanted to try it out with the pair and the size of the stage forced the vertical stacking. The bottom 1212 had the angled speaker down firing to the floor and put the other 1212L on top with the angled speaker up firing on the top...had a 1000 watts running through them...think I could have brought a wall down...and I was not unpleased sonically otherwise...best I can do for now as a review till I try them horizonatlly as a pair (just recently got the second 1212L)
 

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