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Vertical cab stacking---the only way to play

#261
tolson36 said:
"Kick gets a shot at 20-25hz"

I've always heard the power of the kick is 80. And I also thought most sound guys roll off at 50-55--so I have to question that anything is being reproduced at 20-25.

I'm not a pro though--anyone else?
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80 is probably the frequency that generates the most mud on a bass drum. OK, so maybe you don't do all the way down to 20 if your equipment won't do it, but certainly no higher than 35-40hz is where the power of the kick lives. It may sound powerful by itself to boost it to 80, but all that does is make mud right in the general area of where you'll be playing the bass most of the night.
 
#262
Very interesting thread! Makes a lot of sense, given the proven superiority of line arrays for PA applications. How do the effects that we're talking about here show themselves in conventional bass cab configurations which have speakers aligned both vertically and horizontally - i.e. all other things being equal, will a conventional 8X10 perform better in these respects than a 6X10, which will perform better than a 4X10, which will perform better than a (horizontal) 2X10? PA line array systems often use multiples of the same size driver per element, and often have multiple lines flown side by side (thus there is some horizontal alignment), so does it work that the benefits become greater as the ratio of vertically aligned drivers to horizontally aligned drivers becomes greater?

I'm finding this to be very interesting stuff, and hopefully a pointer to the direction that bass amplification will be headed over the next few years (or is already heading - at least for those who know!). And just think - we don't have to all go out and buy L1s after all ;)
 
#263
The difference for line arrays is in the size of the waves. Highs and mids have smaller waves and are much more directional so you can run the cabs horizontally as long as they're within the given distance parameters they need to be. Bass waves are substantially bigger and it's not practical to go horizontal with the subs like the mids and highs because they bump into each other when separated. That's the short version, anyway.

As for cabs, that goes on a cab by cab basis. All I can tell you is I have gotten excellent results with any of those cab configs you mention, but I always sound better to myself when I have a speaker at ear level or pointing at me from the floor. Whether or not they were acoustically perfect, I don't know, but they worked. But nothing has worked like a single column of drivers on axis for me. I'll still trot out the SVT cab to impress visiting musicians occasionally and I'll love it, but I'm sold on this method.
 
#265
20-25 Hz indeed! To read this is to chortle. And those whom questioned this advice were right to do so from another perspective as well, as there are relatively few systems spec'd to deliver big SPL at those frequencies. There are a few different schools of thoughts on kick drum and bass mixing but this excerpt from a Invalid Link Removed is worthy of interest:

"The kick drum frequency can be a fundamental problem for many people as they have a misconception as to where this frequency actually is. I will not say that the fundamental frequency is exactly at 80 Hz, but usually the 80 Hz, 1/3 octave equalizer control, will bring more of the kicks thump out than say 50 Hz, 63 Hz or 100 Hz. Usually, this fundamental is somewhere between about 72 and 80 Hz.

It is not always easy to get a great sound from a kick drum; however, most people reproduce the characteristic kick drum sound established in an LA studio by New York drummer, Steve Gadd. You can hear similar kick drum tunings in most genres of music today, and the reason is very simple. It fits, and it does not step on the vocalist or rhythm instruments. The sound consists of the fundamental frequency and the second harmonic that is one octave above of course, but subsequent harmonics are suppressed. This is what the proper use of the pillow in the kick drum results in. (If you would recall the early sound of John Bonham´s kick drum sound in Led Zeppelin. It rang quite a bit, and just wasn't tight by today's standards.)

If you would like to dry up and tighten a kick drum in a mix, insert an equalizer into the kick channel, roll it off below 40 Hz; boost it +4 to +6 dB at 80 Hz; and leave 100, 125, and 160 Hz flat (0 dB). Set 200 Hz to -3 dB, 250 Hz to 6 dB. Cut 315 Hz through 500 Hz completely (-12 dB). Set 800 Hz to 6 dB, and leave 1 kHz through 5 kHz flat. Then cut 6.3 kHz to 4 dB, 8 kHz to 8 dB, and cut 10 kHz, 12.5 kHz and 16 kHz all the way (-12 dB). This equalization curve can help when wanting more punch out of your kick drum in a mix, but other problems may arise when you choose where to place the loudspeaker."
 
#266
JimmyM said:
The difference for line arrays is in the size of the waves. Highs and mids have smaller waves and are much more directional so you can run the cabs horizontally as long as they're within the given distance parameters they need to be. Bass waves are substantially bigger and it's not practical to go horizontal with the subs like the mids and highs because they bump into each other when separated. That's the short version, anyway.
Click to expand...

It's the wrong version.
 
#268
theshadow2001 said:
So with aux feeding you can control how much of what goes into the subs. But how can this stop say the kick from stepping all over the bass since there's still no control on that end of the frequency spectrum on most desks (well any desk I've seen has had at most two sweepable mids and a high and low)
Click to expand...
Get a better desk. If that's not an option get a 31 band EQ or parametric and run it on the kick channel alone.
Kick gets a shot at 20-25hz
Click to expand...
That's an octave too low. Most PAs high pass the subs at 30-35 Hz. But I'd never goose the kick at 80 Hz, that's going to clash with the bass. BTW, the worst FOH guys do just that, boost the kick around 80Hz, and the bass around 50 Hz. You end up with kick that walks all over the bass, and bass that sounds like mud. The best FOH guys have it the other way around.

The difference for line arrays is in the size of the waves. Highs and mids have smaller waves and are much more directional so you can run the cabs horizontally as long as they're within the given distance parameters they need to be. Bass waves are substantially bigger and it's not practical to go horizontal with the subs like the mids and highs because they bump into each other when separated. That's the short version, anyway.
Click to expand...
Backwards you have that.
 
#269
Jimmy, if you're going to post incorrect statements, or even those that run counter to convention, you will get dissenters. For example, this:

JimmyM said:
The difference for line arrays is in the size of the waves. Highs and mids have smaller waves and are much more directional so you can run the cabs horizontally as long as they're within the given distance parameters they need to be. Bass waves are substantially bigger and it's not practical to go horizontal with the subs like the mids and highs because they bump into each other when separated. That's the short version, anyway.
Click to expand...

is completely incorrect and untrue. It is the highs and mids that need to be vertically aligned due to their smaller wavelengths and the lows for which horizontal alignment is not problematic.

This doesn't mean that vertical alignment isn't a good idea for bass guitar because there is plenty of midrange and treble in the bass guitar sound, even a woofy old school sound, which benefits from vertical alignment.

Alex
 
#270
Waitasec now...if I have that backwards, how come subs are always bunched together in the center and mids and highs are always flown and arranged horizontally across the truss as well as vertically? Conflicting info I'm getting.
 
#272
billfitzmaurice said:
That's an octave too low. Most PAs high pass the subs at 30-35 Hz. But I'd never goose the kick at 80 Hz, that's going to clash with the bass. BTW, the worst FOH guys do just that, boost the kick around 80Hz, and the bass around 50 Hz. You end up with kick that walks all over the bass, and bass that sounds like mud. The best FOH guys have it the other way around.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. My thing for using 20-25hz is based on something John Paul Jones likes to do in the studio for the kick to give it that thump in the chest that makes you puke at high volumes. So I like to give it a shot at the lowest freqs the system can handle. Your M may V. But I like giving the kick as low a freq as the system can handle for that reason.
 
#273
JimmyM said:
Fair enough. My thing for using 20-25hz is based on something John Paul Jones likes to do in the studio for the kick to give it that thump in the chest that makes you puke at high volumes.
Click to expand...
If he did/does it's an exercise in audio masturbation. Even today it's the rare home hi-fi that can reach that low, let alone during the Zep period.
 
#274
JimmyM said:
Fair enough. My thing for using 20-25hz is based on something John Paul Jones likes to do in the studio for the kick to give it that thump in the chest that makes you puke at high volumes. So I like to give it a shot at the lowest freqs the system can handle. Your M may V. But I like giving the kick as low a freq as the system can handle for that reason.
Click to expand...

But studio sound and live reinfocement are two different animals. Even in the studio for a recording I think that unless you have a great system the 20-25Hz is going to be difficult enough to reproduce on the majority of peoples stereo's I could be wrong I'm not to well up on home audio.

I would be wary of giving too much welly to the very low frequencies in any system it could lead to over excursion city if your not careful. If it works for you it works for you though.

A question for bill or anyone else really in terms of your bog standard bar band kind of PA system with two tops and two subs (say a pair 18's and a pair of 15's or 12's). What would be the best way to organize the subs? Would be to stack them to one side of the stage? Or maybe a compramise might be at right angles to each other in the centre of the stage. Stacking vertically in the centre would to me be a bit impractical on most stages I have seen (which is usually just on the ground or maybe an area raised a few inches off the ground) Or is having one either side of the stage either side of the stage far enough apart. Or does far enough apart to avoid coming exist?
to avoid combing?
 

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