Vertical cab stacking---the only way to play

[pedro]

Okay then, let's see if I have my head around this...if a cab with 4x10's arranged single stack is better than 8x10 traditional cabs, it would also follow that a guy with 2 2x10's stacked vertical would be just as good as the hypothetical single column 4x10, right?

Yes.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

That is correct although as Bill said, a 4x10 cab w/ the drivers lined up vertically maybe as good as a 8x10 in the conventional arrangement.

Better, if done properly. But put one on the GC floor or on the MF website and 95% of the guys looking at it will say "Only four tens in a box that big? " and pass on it unheard. Knowing that most buyers base their purchase on what a cab looks like, and that they want to buy cabs with the most drivers per cubic inch of cabinet space possible, no manufacturer is going to go out on a limb and build one that goes against the grain, no matter how good it sounds.

 

[KJung]

Better, if done properly. But put one on the GC floor or on the MF website and 95% of the guys looking at it will say "Only four tens in a box that big? " and pass on it unheard. Knowing that most buyers base their purchase on what a cab looks like, and that they want to buy cabs with the most drivers per cubic inch of cabinet space possible, no manufacturer is going to go out on a limb and build one that goes against the grain, no matter how good it sounds.

I'm still confused about what 'better' means. If you mean it will have a deeper bass response and more even mids, then I agree with that. However, that's not necessarily the tonality that someone who digs a fridge is looking for.

Maybe I'm missing something, but that's like saying an Acme210 sounds 'better' than a Bergantino210 because it is flatter and extends lower. I call that different, surely not 'better'.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I'm still confused about what 'better' means.

A cab that doesn't compromise driver placement, driver complement and cabinet volume will go lower, higher and louder, with wider dispersion, than one which does make those compromises. Whether that's 'better' or not is a personal judgement.

 

[pedro]

Better, if done properly. But put one on the GC floor or on the MF website and 95% of the guys looking at it will say "Only four tens in a box that big? " and pass on it unheard. Knowing that most buyers base their purchase on what a cab looks like, and that they want to buy cabs with the most drivers per cubic inch of cabinet space possible, no manufacturer is going to go out on a limb and build one that goes against the grain, no matter how good it sounds.

(pedro whispers...Bill, if you build it, they will come.)

 

[KJung]

A cab that doesn't compromise driver placement, driver complement and cabinet volume will go lower, higher and louder, with wider dispersion, than one which does make those compromises. Whether that's 'better' or not is a personal judgement.

+1... I think we are saying the same thing. For some playing contexts, that somewhat attenuated low end and goosed mids that you get when you cram too many drivers in too small of a box is a wonderful thing, even though I guess everything in the books says it's not!

 

[billfitzmaurice]

(pedro whispers...Bill, if you build it, they will come.)

Maybe, maybe not. Someone recently asked me to do some designs, more cookie-cutter same old same old. His rationale? "That's what the kids want".
Which, BTW, is why I concentrate on the DIY segment of the market, where what matters is results, not profit margin.

 

[pedro]

Maybe, maybe not. Someone recently asked me to do some designs, more cookie-cutter same old same old. His rationale? "That's what the kids want".
Which, BTW, is why I concentrate on the DIY segment of the market, where what matters is results, not profit margin.

I think I understand. Unfortunately for me I'll never be a DIY'er.

 

[ZolkoW]

......are there any 3x10 cab designs with the drivers in ONE COLUMN, except the -discontinued- EA 310?

my GAS always leads me to the workshop :-D

 

[Melvin7822]

This whole entire thread has caused me to dig out my college acoustics book. From what I remember, comb filtering is the result of the direct sound meeting with a reflection of that sound. If you eliminate the reflections, you eliminate comb filtering altogether. So comb filtering would be most noticeable in a smaller room, but in a music hall or auditorium the effects of comb filtering are negligible. Just wall in to a small empty room and clap your hands, the flutter sound produced is comb filtering at work. Walk into an auditorium and clap your hands there, and you see that the flutter is not really produced.

I'm not sure if I believe that drivers in horizontal configuration would cause comb filtering. In order to do so, one driver would have to be slightly out of time. I would be moreso inclined to believe that horizontal alignment may effect dispersion insofar as the waves are combining in the center of horizontal array and forming a small "power alley" so to speak. I would think at the right SPL, dispersion would be better.

However, this is all assuming that you are using the cabinet for its unintended of carrying your sound into the whole room. If you are using your cabinet strictly for monitoring purpose, none of this is important.

I was in a band where my cabinet was my only source of sound. In large rooms, I had no problem walking all around the stage and hearing myself. In smaller rooms, as long as I was not close to any walls, I would only at best experience SBIR (or speaker-boundary interference).

In the end, using anything for it's designed purpose works best. However, what works for you is what works for you. My 0.02.

 

[KJung]

Maybe, maybe not. Someone recently asked me to do some designs, more cookie-cutter same old same old. His rationale? "That's what the kids want".
Which, BTW, is why I concentrate on the DIY segment of the market, where what matters is results, not profit margin.

It's all about what sounds good in the real world when amplifying a bass guitar. If you purely went with 'what looks good on paper', everyone would be playing with a drum machine and not a drummer, since that would give us perfect time. Music doesn't work that way... neither does sound (at least in the specific case of amplifying a single instrument versus program music, etc.).

If you build a box that really sounds good, trust me, those of us who are not 'kids' and that care about our tone deeply will buy it. If someone designs a box that follows all the rules and looks perfect on paper but sounds like **s in a live setting with a bass guitar, we won't

 

[billfitzmaurice]

This whole entire thread has caused me to dig out my college acoustics book. From what I remember, comb filtering is the result of the direct sound meeting with a reflection of that sound..

That can be a source, but rarely. What you're describing is room modes.

So comb filtering would be most noticeable in a smaller room, but in a music hall or auditorium the effects of comb filtering are negligible.

The exact opposite is the case.

I'm not sure if I believe that drivers in horizontal configuration would cause comb filtering.

It is by far the main cause. Your theories are all intuitive responses. Where the properties and function of soundwaves are concerned intuition is usually wrong.

 

[Melvin7822]

Hey Bill,
I guess I should burn my acoustics book then.

It most certainly described comb filtering as a result of the direct sound meeting the reflected sound. Is there a good book that you can recommend?

Unfortunately, the book said nothing of comb filtering occurring when sound sources meet on the horizontal plane. The only thing that happens is summation at where they meet. This would of course assume that the sources are perfectly inline with one another on the horizontal plane. So I guess if you're standing outside of area of summation, it will appear that there is less sound.

Flanging is a type of comb filtering and it is caused by imposing an extremely short delay on the original signal. Perhaps the problem is that there a lot of phenomena that involve reflections and it's tough to keep them straight. I'll be sure to go read up on room modes again.

 

[pedro]

If you build a box that really sounds good, trust me, those of us who are not 'kids' and that care about our tone deeply will buy it.

At the risk of anticipating Bill's response, I would guess that he'd say he's already designed several but you have to build them yourself.

 

[ZolkoW]

Hey Bill,
I guess I should burn my acoustics book then.

reflections have always less power than direct sound... now figure how comb filtering works with two sources with the same power!
your book are talking about one source, I guess.. the same applies to more sources, but they are at the same acoustic power.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

If you build a box that really sounds good, trust me, those of us who are not 'kids' and that care about our tone deeply will buy it.

You won't be given the opportunity. The vast majority of players base their purchase decisions on how the cabs look. That fact is not lost on manufacturers, who won't make the investment required to introduce a superior product without a guarantee that it will sell.

 

[KJung]

You won't be given the opportunity. The vast majority of players base their purchase decisions on how the cabs look. That fact is not lost on manufacturers, who won't make the investment required to introduce a superior product without a guarantee that it will sell.

That's a good point, I agree.

 

[ZolkoW]

If you build a box that really sounds good, trust me, those of us who are not 'kids' and that care about our tone deeply will buy it.

thats about 5% max. :-S
most people who say they don't care about looking, aren't honest ;-)
I DO care about how my rig looks, that's important for me.. I wouldn't buy anything that sounds great, but looks odd.. but I think, there must be great-looking and great sounding configurations, so I keep on building ;-)

 

[MikeyD]

It most certainly described comb filtering as a result of the direct sound meeting the reflected sound.

So-called "comb filtering" is a spatial pattern caused by diffraction, which is caused by the constructive and destructive interference of waves of the same frequency from two non-point sources. What is "non-point" is relative to the wavelengths involved - and can even include two or more surfaces on the same radiator - or even reflections from the loudspeaker cabinet itself. Such patterns can also be caused or influenced by additional temporal delays (e.g., phased arrays), reflections, and so-forth - basically anything that can cause sound waves of the same frequency to converge and interfere (constructively or destructively) through a temporal delay. This thread is speaking primarily of temporal delay caused by differences in path lengths.

That said, given the reality of most acoustic spaces, comb filtering effects are being vastly overhyped in these forums, for most bass guitar applications, relative to all the other things that usually have a greater effect what people hear in live music situations.

- Mike

 

[Energy]

Kustom is the only company I can think of that made vertical cabs.

Okay, this is a PA rig, but you could use it for bass, too.