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Vertical cab stacking---the only way to play
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
I believe it's all about cabinet volume and tuning, and the tone you are trying to achieve. The GIII and Acme210 are pretty close to the same size, and yet due to tuning, driver design, etc. have totally different tones, low end, and mid response, SPL, etc., etc.
There is no 'exact optimum width/depth/height' ratio for a speaker that I am aware of.
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. Now about Larry's technique.
That would be a different and very humbling discussion for all of us
As a big bass reggae junkie who's been to countless Sound Systems and concerts over the years, I must say the very best bass amplification I've ever heard in a big room was the flown line array setup The Wailers and a few other bands played through at a hall in Lausanne a few years ago. Also, the Rototom Sunsplash festival in Ossoppo, Italy, switched to a suspended line array PA from one using traditional 18" subs, and the dispersion and tonal quality improved immeasurably for all the acts. I had never heard such richness in the mids before these systems, nor had I heard such big huge clear bass that didn't mask the other instruments.
On a side note, I just saw Public Enemy here in Montreal in a fairly big 3000 capacity theater with high ceilings and a balcony. The idiot sound company flew the line array system so low that it was like listening to a transistor radio at the back of the room, and ear bleedingly loud at the front of the room. I had to find a spot in the middle of the floor where I could feel the bass but not have my hearing permanently damaged, it was that bad. Excuse me for the rant, but I'm a big concert goer and I'm more often disgusted than pleased with the lack of skill and professionalism displayed by soundmen, not to mention the ineptitude I've experienced by guys hired to do sound at a few festivals I've played at, or by the kids and monkeys left to mix the shows after the boss doesn't bother to show after the soundcheck. Rant over.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Yes.
Cab manufacturers sell what customers want. When the average buyer thinks that putting as many drivers into as small a box as possible is how a cab should be then that's what they'll get. In 1967 the Fender Bassman 2x12 went from 32x21x11.5 to 40x29.5x11.5, resulting in a much better low end. It failed in the marketplace, the average player thinking that a box that large should have had more drivers and that Fender was playing a shell game. In 1972 Bassman went back down to 30x28x12 and did so as a 2x15. It sounded worse, it sold better.
There is, sort of, it's called the Golden Ratio, but it dates back to huge hi-fi woofer cabs of the 50s, which benefitted from a ratio that suppressed standing waves. The smaller cabs made possible with modern drivers have rendered it pretty much moot.
Chances are only the tops were flown, subs are usually ground clustered. For subs to gain any benefit from being line arrayed the array would have to be at least 35 feet high.
I just made this by pasting together some pics. I figure two 8x10's would be the ultimate in vertical stacking.
Not unless I've misunderstood Bill's post. I would think 2 4x10 where the 4x10's are vertically stacked would be better than the 2 8x10's where you have them side by side.
I will say once again, use your ears. The bass cabs of today are exponentially better sounding than 'back in the day', and are smaller, louder, more even, wider frequency range and higher SPL all at once.
This is expecially wonderful for those of us who use 5 string instruments with roundwound strings. Many backline bass rigs (212's, 410's, etc.) sound better than front of house sound 25 years ago
IMO, it's the golden age of loudspeaker and amplification design for bass quitarists.
I will say once again, use your ears. The bass cabs of today are exponentially better sounding than 'back in the day', and are smaller, louder, more even, wider frequency range and higher SPL all at once.
This is expecially wonderful for those of us who use 5 string instruments with roundwound strings. Many backline bass rigs (212's, 410's, etc.) sound better than front of house sound 25 years ago
IMO, it's the golden age of loudspeaker and amplification design for bass quitarists.
I'm the least qualified to answer but it seems to me that both could be right. Things might be better but could also be better still if the cabs were bigger. I hope if I've misunderstood Bill's remarks I trust he'll correct me.
+1.. but I would not use the word 'better'. For example, most consider the Acme's to be about as 'flat' as any bass cab on the market, and they extend all the way down to the fundamental of an open B string. So, why don't we all use them? On paper, they seem perfect (and of course some love them... I personally don't dig the tone at all).
IMO, that's because 'flat' is just one of an infinite number of voicings that a cab could have, and of course, once we get the cab in a room, flat in a 'test chamber' goes all to hell anyway.
While 'flat' down to a very low -3db roll-off might be a very good thing for programmed music or a front of house system, to my ear, it's not necessarily the best voicing for the electric bass guitar. If you are playing in a busy mix in pop music and want to slot the bass appropriately between the bass drum and the rest of the band, 32hz is not necessarily your friend.
So, I agree, there are ways that manufacturers could 'even out' the frequency response of their cabs, and also extend the low end deeper, but while that's a good goal in the acoustic design/EE textbooks, it's not necessarily the tool to get to many current bass guitar tones in the most efficient way possible.
IMO as always, and again, as a 'player' and gear hog, I really do enjoy these discussions, and don't pretend to 'know' or 'be right'. However, the above has been my experience over a long period of agonizing over this stuff in 'backline only' live performance playing the bass guitar.
I just made this by pasting together some pics. I figure two 8x10's would be the ultimate in vertical stacking.
While I'm one that doesn't really hear the impact of 'comb filtering' in a small, side by side configured speaker configurations (like a horizontal 210 or 410) when amplifying the bass guitar (i.e., I don't hear significantly different off axis response in the upper mids versus, for example, a 2 x 112 stack), I think you are missing the point of what these guys are calling 'vertical stacking'.
By vertical stacking, they are talking about no side by side speakers at all, but rather an array of one single speaker on top of another. This eliminates the 'horizontal' interaction of the speakers in the upper frequencies, resulting is a more even tone around the room. How much of an effect this actually is for the typical bass guitar tone is questionable to me, but again, just stacking traditional 410's or 810's is not what these guys are talking about. It would be stacking single 112's or 110's, or turning a couple of 210's 'on their sides' and stacking them so that there is no 'side by side' speaker orientation at all.
So for a cab like the 8x10 Ampgeg to be reconfigured based on the "no side by side" speaker rule, it should be built to about 8ft tall with all the tens stacked, one upon the other?
Since so many cabs are built with "side by side" speakers, the comb filtering effect must be considered part of the cabs "tone".
I'm not a tech, just trying to figure this out. Is this what's being said?
Amp design, definitely. Cab and driver design, eh, I'm still withholding judgment.I will say once again, use your ears. The bass cabs of today are exponentially better sounding than 'back in the day', and are smaller, louder, more even, wider frequency range and higher SPL all at once.
This is expecially wonderful for those of us who use 5 string instruments with roundwound strings. Many backline bass rigs (212's, 410's, etc.) sound better than front of house sound 25 years ago
IMO, it's the golden age of loudspeaker and amplification design for bass quitarists.
Yes... silly isn't it
Edit: Seriously, though, I can see 'speaker placement' being a big issue with PA stacks, subwoofers, etc., etc., and I guess stereo speakers that reproduce full range program music in small listening spaces. Bass guitar speakers designed to reproduce bass guitar frequencies... IME, not so much (and again, but IME, I mean many years of both using and listening out in the room to various 410's, 2 x 112 'vertical arrays', and to players who somewhat arbitrarily use their 2 x 210 stack either horizontally or vertically stacked depending on stage size. I've never heard a systematic drop off of upper mids and lower treble (which is what I understand the 'comb filtering' impact to be in 'horizontally oriented' bass guitar cabs) that was noticable different between small vertical arrays and small 'side by side' configurations.
If you haven't gigged with some of the Epi, Berg, Accugroove, Acme cabs (depending on your tone goals), you would be AMAZED at how good some of this stuff sounds IMO and IME.
That is correct although as Bill said, a 4x10 cab w/ the drivers lined up vertically maybe as good as a 8x10 in the conventional arrangement.
Okay then, let's see if I have my head around this...if a cab with 4x10's arranged single stack is better than 8x10 traditional cabs, it would also follow that a guy with 2 2x10's stacked vertical would be just as good as the hypothetical single column 4x10, right?
It would be identical for all practical purposes. Many who prefer a speaker and tweeter close to their ear use two 210's stacked on their sides.
And again, I'm not sure 'better' is the right word comparing a 2 x 210 stack versus an 810. If 'comb filtering' is all you are considering, then it would be a subtle improvement at best. However, if you are comparing a ported cab with a sealed cab (i.e., a full voiced, relativley high SPL 'modern' 2 x 210 or 410) with a sealed 8x10 cab, then I could see where some would say one is 'better' than the other. They would surely sound different, and mostly not due to the vertical array difference IMO and IME.
