Sorry to waste a post but this is the funniest thing I've seen from bill on either forum!
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Vertical cab stacking---the only way to play
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
Sorry to waste a post but this is the funniest thing I've seen from bill on either forum!
In reading the last few pages of this, I am re-reminded of why I like using smaller pa cabs on stage for bass. I first did it with a pair of Peavey SP-2s years ago. I loved it, sound guys, they didnt care for it so much. Bill, thanx for all the dirt.
My guess is that the PA cab had too much deep low end and messed with the mix out front.
Just fired up my two new Avatar Neo 2x10". Stacked them of course and wow, very nice. Even better that when I used one with a neo 1x12. These will truly replace my neo 410. It's a shame it is so new (2 months and in red) I can't afford to sell it, so into the basement it goes to practice on.
My true goal with these 2 matching cabs is to put one on each side of the stage for the other half of the band to hear. Our FOH guy may not like it but he is a bass player so he should understand.
My true goal with these 2 matching cabs is to put one on each side of the stage for the other half of the band to hear. Our FOH guy may not like it but he is a bass player so he should understand.
I used to do that. One cab on each side of the drummer, what's that, maybe 10-12 feet apart. How far apart do you plan to put yours.
Won't it interfere with the monitor mix?
Will both be miked?
Yeah, FOH will probably will not like it.
Doesn't the bass come through the monitors?
Are the other members of the band complaining that they can't hear you well enough?
Won't it interfere with the guitar players sound as he/she will have to hear his level now competing with direct bass cab?
Rick Auricchio
Registered Bass Offender
The band may be able to hear you better, but by spreading the cabs you will ruin your sound in the house. The cabs will cause cancellations, so that some places in the house will have too much bass...others will have almost none.
Read the early post in the thread for the link to the "power alley" article.
Just keep them stacked.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
+1.
If they actually need to hear you better run it through their monitor mixes, and high-pass it at 100 Hz, what's lower than that they don't need a cab on their side of the stage to hear.
I realize there may be cancelations. They will be 15 to 30 feet apart, and angled up. The drummer and GTR on my far left can never hear me while the GTR and singer/keys next to me complain I'm to loud. We do have good monitors but our FOH will not put them in the wedges for the others.
I use IEM so I get some bass in them as well.
Maybe it will bug him enough to put me in the wedges and then i can stack em L)
Rick Auricchio
Registered Bass Offender
Have you considered adding a small combo to aim at the drummer and guitar player? That would avoid worrying about the sound guy, and perhaps you could turn down your cabs. It sounds like you may be turning up the volume to try to get to the drummer.
Just use a Y-connector or an FX send to feed some bass to the little combo. They won't really care about tone if they can hear your notes.
I'd make him buy it, but yeah, this is probably the best solution if your soundman is too much of a girl to put the bass in the monitors.
Here's the solution:
Take your 2nd cab and put it in front of the GTR player lined up with the FOH monitors, lean it back and face it towards him (a separate bass monitor).
Use the line out from your amp and run it through another amp to power your bass monitor. Then you can adjust the volume/tone to the GTR player's liking, won't mess up the FOH sound and everyone will be happy.
Maybe the SE can do this for you by setting up an additional monitoring speaker just for the bass.
Take your 2nd cab and put it in front of the GTR player lined up with the FOH monitors, lean it back and face it towards him (a separate bass monitor).
Use the line out from your amp and run it through another amp to power your bass monitor. Then you can adjust the volume/tone to the GTR player's liking, won't mess up the FOH sound and everyone will be happy.
Maybe the SE can do this for you by setting up an additional monitoring speaker just for the bass.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
The key to success is high-passing the feed. What they can't hear from the backline is the directional mids and highs, so that's all that need be in the monitors. The non-directional bass frequencies don't need to be in the monitor mix, and if they are they'll make things worse, not better. BTW, this is stuff that a well informed FOH engineer already knows. Ergo, if he doesn't know this stuff...
Rick Auricchio
Registered Bass Offender
Of course. They can hear the thump and boom from anywhere on stage, but what they can't hear is the upper mids that provide the note articulation. You have to hear the fret clicks to really know where the notes are. That's all they need, which is why a high-passed monitor or a cheap little combo will do the trick.
This is similar to having a heavily damped kick drum...it becomes hard to hear the kick, so you rely on the hi-hat or snare.
This is similar to having a heavily damped kick drum...it becomes hard to hear the kick, so you rely on the hi-hat or snare.
Bill as someone coming back to gigging, and from a time when only the famous musicians had sound reinforcement, I'd like to know just how many 'well informed FOH engineers' are we likely to run into out there in the small to medium sized clubs?
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
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Not many.
In the pro-touring ranks most of the younger generation (under 35) know a Hz from a dB, but you'd be surprised how many of the older guys don't. OTOH those older guys are just like the musicians on stage, the roadies do all the setup, they just show up for the gig. You don't need engineering chops to ride the sliders.
Just finished reading this whole thread. Man there are some smart people on here and Bill F. is an invaluable contributor to TB!
After reading all this there's no telling what my UL310 is doing to the sonic landscape! Nick told me once to try putting it so two tens are on the floor, just like the Demeter BSC310 and I'm told some old Bassman cabs, a clear violation of the Vertical Array Rule. I tried it, didn't notice much difference and kept it in it's normal configuration.
The comb-filtering thing is interesting. I'm kind of with Ken Jung on this. I'm not sure it's really a major practical concern to most guys playing small to medium clubs. I've played many gigs with friends/family, other bass players, prosound engineers in attendence sitting in various places in the club and I usually solicit feedback by asking them several questions:
Can you hear the bass? Yes
Is the bass too loud? No
Can you hear every note distinctly, low and high? Yes
When I switch from fingerstyle to slap is there a noticeable
volume difference? No
Is the slap sound clear? Yes
Can you feel the bass? Yes
Granted some people may be getting a different mix in different parts of the room due to the comb-filtering but apparantly not significant enough to require some correction on my part.
I think most poor bass sound in clubs comes from improper EQing by the bassist. I still play many gigs with the backs of my calves almost touching my speaker grill. But I have no trouble hearing myself UNLESS the guitarist has his amp pointed at me or is frequency-masking me with his low end ( that's a whole other subject
) I add a touch more mid and treble than I might normally use if I was playing solo and am very careful with the bass boost. Many rooms I actually cut bass just a tad.
So anyway, just my 2 cents as a non-techie. It's great to be educated on why things work the way they do but don't fall into the " I must have a vertical array because that's the technically correct way" trap. Do what works for you and if your audience is happy too, you've succeeded!
Cheers and HAPPY 4TH TO EVERYONE!
After reading all this there's no telling what my UL310 is doing to the sonic landscape! Nick told me once to try putting it so two tens are on the floor, just like the Demeter BSC310 and I'm told some old Bassman cabs, a clear violation of the Vertical Array Rule. I tried it, didn't notice much difference and kept it in it's normal configuration.
The comb-filtering thing is interesting. I'm kind of with Ken Jung on this. I'm not sure it's really a major practical concern to most guys playing small to medium clubs. I've played many gigs with friends/family, other bass players, prosound engineers in attendence sitting in various places in the club and I usually solicit feedback by asking them several questions:
Can you hear the bass? Yes
Is the bass too loud? No
Can you hear every note distinctly, low and high? Yes
When I switch from fingerstyle to slap is there a noticeable
volume difference? No
Is the slap sound clear? Yes
Can you feel the bass? Yes
Granted some people may be getting a different mix in different parts of the room due to the comb-filtering but apparantly not significant enough to require some correction on my part.
I think most poor bass sound in clubs comes from improper EQing by the bassist. I still play many gigs with the backs of my calves almost touching my speaker grill. But I have no trouble hearing myself UNLESS the guitarist has his amp pointed at me or is frequency-masking me with his low end ( that's a whole other subject
) I add a touch more mid and treble than I might normally use if I was playing solo and am very careful with the bass boost. Many rooms I actually cut bass just a tad.So anyway, just my 2 cents as a non-techie. It's great to be educated on why things work the way they do but don't fall into the " I must have a vertical array because that's the technically correct way" trap. Do what works for you and if your audience is happy too, you've succeeded!
Cheers and HAPPY 4TH TO EVERYONE!
