Vintage vs. Modern tone

[JimmyM]

I also don’t get why a P Bass seems to be the prerequisite for vintage tone.

It's not. Now I might not go for one of my neck-through basses with active EMG's for "vintage tones" as a first choice when I have four perfectly good Precisions (OK, so three of them are PJ's but I only occasionally use the J ), but I can certainly get in that tonal ballpark with any of them. And I can get in the "modern" ballpark with any of them as well, even my Dano and my violin basses if need be, although it's not their forte. Slap new rounds on any of them, turn that tweeter on, and let's get modern Actually, I can get pretty modern without the tweeter, too, and I prefer it.

As for the Stingray, Cliff Williams of AC/DC has used one for years with flats, and he certainly doesn't sound like Flea live. His sound is big and fat without a lot of treble.

But certain basses just plain excel in certain applications. Even Cliff cut most of his best stuff in the studio with a Precision, although he's best known for using a Ray live because he can hear himself better with it. I tried my Dano and violin basses for my band's upcoming new album where I'm getting a big fat bass sound without much treble, and I went with my P with dead flats because it just plain worked better on everything. The other basses would have worked very well, but something just doesn't sound right with these songs and arrangements while the P was all business all the way through. And I've done many a gig on a P with rounds playing a wide variety of songs, many with so-called "modern tones," and never felt like it was out of place. Now there were songs I probably would have preferred to have a little more scoopy sound and a little more treble, but that's why I use PJ's with rounds and that's why a lot of folks like the Jazz. They just plain can do it all and excel at all of it. But the P by itself is so good with a lot of that stuff in its own right that I really don't miss the bridge pickup very often.

Way more important than the gear is the operator, though, and if you sound inappropriate to the music you're playing, I ain't blamin' the gear.

 

[Texican]

It's not. Now I might not go for one of my neck-through basses with active EMG's for "vintage tones" as a first choice when I have four perfectly good Precisions (OK, so three of them are PJ's but I only occasionally use the J ), but I can certainly get in that tonal ballpark with any of them. And I can get in the "modern" ballpark with any of them as well, even my Dano and my violin basses if need be, although it's not their forte. Slap new rounds on any of them, turn that tweeter on, and let's get modern Actually, I can get pretty modern without the tweeter, too, and I prefer it.

As for the Stingray, Cliff Williams of AC/DC has used one for years with flats, and he certainly doesn't sound like Flea live. His sound is big and fat without a lot of treble.

But certain basses just plain excel in certain applications. Even Cliff cut most of his best stuff in the studio with a Precision, although he's best known for using a Ray live because he can hear himself better with it. I tried my Dano and violin basses for my band's upcoming new album where I'm getting a big fat bass sound without much treble, and I went with my P with dead flats because it just plain worked better on everything. The other basses would have worked very well, but something just doesn't sound right with these songs and arrangements while the P was all business all the way through. And I've done many a gig on a P with rounds playing a wide variety of songs, many with so-called "modern tones," and never felt like it was out of place. Now there were songs I probably would have preferred to have a little more scoopy sound and a little more treble, but that's why I use PJ's with rounds and that's why a lot of folks like the Jazz. They just plain can do it all and excel at all of it. But the P by itself is so good with a lot of that stuff in its own right that I really don't miss the bridge pickup very often.

Way more important than the gear is the operator, though, and if you sound inappropriate to the music you're playing, I ain't blamin' the gear.

Can’t say I disagree with anything you said, but than again the P Bass is my “desert island” bass... if I could only have one, it would have to be a P.

Still, your opinions and observations are that of a working pro who generally utilizes vintage (style) tones. I stand by my observation that, overall, when the term “vintage” is mentioned around here, the knee-jerk reaction from most is to immediately think “P with flats”............. and that sentiment wouldn’t necessarily be wrong... just incomplete IMHO

 

[JimmyM]

Can’t say I disagree with anything you said, but than again the P Bass is my “desert island” bass... if I could only have one, it would have to be a P.

Still, your opinions and observations are that of a working pro who generally utilizes vintage (style) tones. I stand by my observation that, overall, when the term “vintage” is mentioned around here, the knee-jerk reaction from most is to immediately think “P with flats”............. and that sentiment wouldn’t necessarily be wrong... just incomplete IMHO

Very much so. And it's also incomplete to think that you can't use a P with flats for modern tones, either. Steve Harris' tone is pretty bright and lively and he uses a P with flats.

 

[rodl2005]

And the Stingray does indeed have a treble control, which, shock, horror, can be turned all the way down. Usually, the result is less treble

 

[Texican]

Very much so. And it's also incomplete to think that you can't use a P with flats for modern tones, either. Steve Harris' tone is pretty bright and lively and he uses a P with flats.

He changed his strings every night though... and those rotos cost $40 a pop! That’s not gonna work for this poor bass player

You bring up an even bigger debate though: Is Iron Maiden vintage or modern?! And where is the sad middle ground where something is simply “dated”?...

 

[UntitledUser]

Real Vintage tone to be very picky should be the one produced with doublebass recorded with a mic in front.
Like you still find this thing, in some (tasty) jazz albums made by virtuoso bass players of the genre.

Electric bass guitar, like Fender P or J, has been the "bass of the future" from the first minute it was designed.
Tone change with years, but still the tone of an electric bass.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Dynamics are also a big part of the picture. Modern style amps are generally faster and more dynamic. Vintage amps are generally more compressed and may even sag a bit, at least if we're talking a about a cranked tube amp. This obviously affects the sound to some extent. It also affects your style of playing to a MASSIVE extent. I like to dig in HARD, fingerstyle, close to the neck on a P-bass. This sounds great on vintage tube amps that are driven into natural compression and smoothens the attack a bit but when I do this on modern solid state amps I feel like I'm gonna get hit in the back of the head by the speaker elements on their way to orbit.

 

[Wissen]

Just like I said earlier...vintage vs modern...60-year-old tone vs 40 year old tone

So then would a true "modern" tone be....sub-synth bass sine waves?

Then we could open the whole can of worms that is the term "modern" itself - a descriptor of a certain age in cultural history from, as you say, just about 40 years ago.

 

[Texican]

Real Vintage tone to be very picky should be the one produced with doublebass recorded with a mic in front.
Like you still find this thing, in some (tasty) jazz albums made by virtuoso bass players of the genre.

Electric bass guitar, like Fender P or J, has been the "bass of the future" from the first minute it was designed.
Tone change with years, but still the tone of an electric bass.

That’s a different instrument really. What about a tuba, or even a washtub with a stick and a string?

Everything invented is “the ____ of the future” until it gets a little grey in its beard. But there’s a reason that there are separate doublebass forums. It’s a separate instrument.

 

[socialleper]

So, I'm new to all of this, so if this topic has been done to death, I apologize.

But, I've noticed in almost every description of a pedal or an amp and even often for basses, the ad copy or the reviewers or whatever are usually all abuzz about the "vintage tone."

Why is that? Is that just because a lot of the music people are playing is older, and they just want to match the tone of the older recordings? Or is there some belief that "vintage" tones are inherently superior?

Because here there is no attempt to sound "vintage" (Darkglass head, Sire bass) and I just love the tone:



I mean, obviously, you wouldn't necessarily want to be that in-your-face all the time, but dang, I thought that was cool. And I'm old enough to remember the vintage tones...

To my mind, "vintage" means a slightly muffled high end, solid low mids, and thick but never subby low end. The recording techniques of the 50s-70s weren't very high fidelity by today's standards, and the bass tones were a little muffled. For me that means bass without a lot of clear articulation or extended low end.
"Modern" is a little harder to nail down as what is happening right now is always changing. In the the 80s more presence became a big thing. Then in the 90s some music was all about super scooped mids. Today bass can have a very full all around tone, with as much highs or lows as you want, and everything in between, as well as being very high fidelity. When it comes to drive pedals or amps, it tends to mean a very aggressive top end with some sizzle or rasp to it.

One isn't superior to the other, it is just a matter of what you are after. Some people here on TB are stuck in the past and only like things that sound 50 years old. Some, like me, have no use for that.
Since you are new (I don't know if that means to bass playing or TB) the advice I will give you is to look at other players in the style you like, or that have a sound that you like, and pick apart their rigs. The internet makes that very easy. As far as TB, take everything with a grain of salt. This isn't reality. 90% of what people are talking about you will never see out in the wild.

 

[Jim Carr]

Real modern bass tone uses no electric bass guitar and no bass player. It is software.

 

[OldFenderPlayer]

"Vintage" is the obsession of old fools with money to waste and the wish to emulate idols from their teenage years. That's why manufacturers like Fender capitalise on it so much.

I represent that remark! Well, the part about old, fool and wishing to emulate. But not the money part.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

That's why I hate most engineers

In all seriousness, though, I choose the sounds I use because I like them. I like nice warm bass tones with just enough treble and upper mids so you can tell what notes I'm playing. Sometimes I like twangy trebly sounds depending on the music, too, but nothing over 5k. Sometimes I like more distortion, sometimes I don't. I don't care if a tone was invented 60 years ago or yesterday.

But we have to nip this "tubes = distortion" nonsense in the bud. It does not. It can, but the most clean sounds I've ever heard have come from tube amps. I'm recording an album full of songs with clean sounds that I achieved by using nothing but a tube amp going direct to the board. Got a couple where I cranked the amp as well, but this idea that tubes are good for nothing but distorted sounds is a complete myth.

Tubes don't = distortion, but tubes will = overdrive when you push them, that is when you oversaturate the tubes. Note that fuzz-box type distortion is quite different than overdrive distortion. This becomes real obvious when you do that. If you don't run their levels high enough to oversaturate the tubes, then they are indeed clear and will generate a nice clean but warm sound. The comparatively low levels of tube distortion at that point are what gives it that nice warm sound.

My Eden hybrid amp very specifically has a single 12ax7 tube in it operating within specific parameters (can't overdrive it) to produce that warm sound. I have another Eden amp that doesn't have the hybrid preamp but rather an FET front end and although both sound great, played side by side it's obvious that the preamp with the single tube in it is producing a noticeably warmer sound. And yes, you can get chips that will emulate that tube sound to some degree.

When I was in college back in the late 60's/early 70's I saw a couple of guitarist bring in these small Fender Champ Amps with JBL speakers in them. It was a fairly small club, but I was surprised that they brought those tiny amps in. So I asked them why they brought those small amps AND put JBL speakers in them. They smiled and said they used those small amps with the JBL instead of the Jensen speakers so they could push the amps hard to get the tube overdrive sound they wanted out of the amps without blowing everyone out of the small club. They said they also used them for recording sessions.

I remember selling Marshall amps in 1985 and we had rooms specifically set up for demonstrating the Marshalls because you really needed to crank them pretty well to get that signature sound out of them. This was a big music store (Apple Music in Portland, OR), but cranking a Marshall outside of those rooms would have buried anything else that was happening on the sales floor.

Tubes do generate that overdriven sound when they are pushed hard. One of the reasons folks liked that sound back then (late 60's) was that concerts typically used Sunn Coliseum amps and cabs for bass and those suckers were being pushed hard. They didn't give a "dirty" distortion sound but you sure could hear them being pushed into overdrive. It was/is a great sound.

 

[JimmyM]

He changed his strings every night though... and those rotos cost $40 a pop! That’s not gonna work for this poor bass player

You bring up an even bigger debate though: Is Iron Maiden vintage or modern?! And where is the sad middle ground where something is simply “dated”?...

Well they still sell out arenas so they can't be too darn dated

 

[hennessybass]

... Bag End S15 ... my new Stingray...

When I hear Bag End and Stingray, I think modern - because those pieces of gear helped bass players usher in the era of “modern” tone.

NOT to say that’s all they can do. Both great pieces of gear that can do anything with a little EQ tweaking.

Check out the video I posted earlier from SBL of Gail Anne Dorsey explaining how she used to dial a modern tone on her Ray, but now dials a vintage tone.

Then we could open the whole can of worms that is the term "modern" itself - a descriptor of a certain age in cultural history from, as you say, just about 40 years ago.

Yep. Just like “modern” literature was written in the 1800s.

A better term for right now, even though it seems “modern” is contemporary.

 

[SunByrne]

Since you are new (I don't know if that means to bass playing or TB) the advice I will give you is to look at other players in the style you like, or that have a sound that you like, and pick apart their rigs. The internet makes that very easy. As far as TB, take everything with a grain of salt. This isn't reality. 90% of what people are talking about you will never see out in the wild.

New to both, actually. Picked up a bass for the first time in... April 2019. Been here on TB less than a month. Loving every minute of it, trying to soak up as much as I can.

Anyway, great advice, thank you. In the spirit of picking apart rigs that have a sound that I think is cool, anyone know what pedal or amp Trent Reznor has on to get the awesome sound he got here? I haven't been able to find it via Google...

 

[Texican]

Well they still sell out arenas so they can't be too darn dated

Well I learned a couple of posts back that it’s probably only “old fools with money“ going to see Maiden

 

[JimmyM]

New to both, actually. Picked up a bass for the first time in... April 2019. Been here on TB less than a month. Loving every minute of it, trying to soak up as much as I can.

Anyway, great advice, thank you. In the spirit of picking apart rigs that have a sound that I think is cool, anyone know what pedal or amp Trent Reznor has on to get the awesome sound he got here? I haven't been able to find it via Google...

Me neither. Who knows? Could be anything, really. I know he's been using Metasonix pedals and a Kemper from seeing his entry on Equipboard. If I were looking to cop that sound on the cheap, I'd probably look to the Malekko Assmaster or Diabolik or similar Maestro Brassmaster type pedals, or maybe something in the Univox Superfuzz family.

And yes, Malekko fuzz-heads, I know it's spelled "B:assmaster." I just like to say "Assmaster."

 

[BasturdBlaster]

To me, in a general sense, modern vs vintage is a matter of eq settings. When the guitars have a lot of bottom then go for the mids, if the guitars are teles without a ton of bottom, then its cool to go deep.

 

[Evil Funk]

"Vintage" is the obsession of old fools with money to waste and the wish to emulate idols from their teenage years. That's why manufacturers like Fender capitalise on it so much.

Maybe some of us simply don't feel like we have been taken advantage of, nor feel like we are obsessing and wasting money. Some of us just want a certain sound.

For me, it's a specific tone i chase, with some versatility to take on a few other tones when needed. It's something i can easily do with the setup i have below, which is obviously a big waste of money, right? Perhaps i should be listening to what the "cool kids" are doing, you know, the ones with years of gigging experience?

Or maybe it's personal preference? Guess that idea is too "old-fashioned" for some to comprehend.