Vitamin Q (Oil in paper) Capacitor

[Bongolation]

The differences are almost certainly due to variations in the actual -- as opposed to rated -- capacitance.

In many cases the rated and actual capacitance are very different and between several caps the range may be really surprising, especially in degraded "vintage" caps.

This error is the source of any difference you actually hear (as opposed to what you imagine you hear) between any two nominally .047mFd capacitors in a bleeder application like this. Measure them.

Along with those about magic cables, I'd love to see the magic bleeder caps discussions vanish from the earth...or at least into forums about autosuggestion.

 

[LowerBeef]

Coincidentally, I just pulled out the stock cap in a '06 MIM Std. Jazz, the original ceramic disk cap marked "503" measures .06175uf on my Fluke 29, while the Orange Drop 225P "473" measured .04694uf. So the ceramic disk was off by 23.5% while the Orange Drop was only off by 0.12%. The difference in the rated value between the 2 caps was only 6%, but the measured difference was 31%!

 

[willieG]

sorry have to disagree here.......I have 5 p-basses......

The Sprague orange drop is very digital sounding to me.....very clear.

The Black beauty is somewhat warmer.....

The Vitamin Q has more depth.....

There is a tonal difference between these units, all things being equal.

I wouldn't lose any sleep about it though......

willieG

 

[ehque]

sorry have to disagree here.......I have 5 p-basses......

The Sprague orange drop is very digital sounding to me.....very clear.

The Black beauty is somewhat warmer.....

The Vitamin Q has more depth.....

There is a tonal difference between these units, all things being equal.

I wouldn't lose any sleep about it though......

willieG

As mentioned above, any sonic differences are most likely due to the difference in actual capacitance (and the variance from rated capacitance) than the construction type.

Did you measure the capacitance of each of the capacitors you used?

 

[line6man]

sorry have to disagree here.......I have 5 p-basses......

The Sprague orange drop is very digital sounding to me.....very clear.

The Black beauty is somewhat warmer.....

The Vitamin Q has more depth.....

There is a tonal difference between these units, all things being equal.

I wouldn't lose any sleep about it though......

willieG

Sorry, I'm just not buying that.

You have 5 different basses.
How are you able to identify differences in tone as being purely from the capacitors?

Put the 5 different capacitors on the same bass and then see how much difference there is.
Once you get into multiple basses, that's too many variables to definitively say that a capacitor makes a difference.

Also, what was the capacitance of each capacitor that you used. For your claim to be accurate, they need to all be the exact same capacitance, and I doubt it if a random sampling of five capacitors would all be the same...

 

[mongo2]

Sorry, I'm just not buying that.

You have 5 different basses.
How are you able to identify differences in tone as being purely from the capacitors?

Put the 5 different capacitors on the same bass and then see how much difference there is.
Once you get into multiple basses, that's too many variables to definitively say that a capacitor makes a difference.

Also, what was the capacitance of each capacitor that you used. For your claim to be accurate, they need to all be the exact same capacitance, and I doubt it if a random sampling of five capacitors would all be the same...

+1

 

[willieG]

I am not selling it.......it's my opinion.

I agree the variables with the basses makes a scientific comparison out of the question.....

Next week.....I am having the sprauge orange drop replaced , with a black beauty.

I will report back then.
Orange drop is 0047 250 volts
Black beauty is 0.1 160P 600 volts

Don't mind eating my own words in the pursuit of P bass satori......if that is the case.

willieG

 

[line6man]

Next week.....I am having the sprauge orange drop replaced , with a black beauty.

I will report back then.
Orange drop is 0047 250 volts
Black beauty is 0.1 160P 600 volts

You can't make any sort of comparison between the two if one is a 0.047uF and the other is a 0.1uF. Apples and oranges here...

 

[bassbenj]

+1

Same goes for me. Hey, yes I HAVE done the experiment between an orange drop (well OK, actually it was a metalized mylar something yellow) and the leaky piece of 10 cent crap ceramic that came in my SX. And I most definitely COULD hear a reasonable difference in sound. But to hear a tone difference between an orange drop, black beauty or Vitamin Q? I don't think so. I hope it's not that I just have a tin ear!

 

[willieG]

You can't make any sort of comparison between the two if one is a 0.047uF and the other is a 0.1uF. Apples and oranges here...

The thing that I am comparing is the sound it produces to my ear......

The orange drop sounds harsh to me......a little too clear like when CD's first came out.....

The black beauty sounds more like analog.

Anyway....whatever works for you is best.

willieG

 

[bongomania]

You don't get it. The sound it produces to your ear will most definitely change when you change the value. If you want to know the truth (or at least a close approximation of the truth), get one of the one type of cap, and one of the other, of the same value. Test them to be sure they are actually very close in value--do not rely on the value printed on it!!! Put them on an on/on switch, and install it in your bass. Switch back and forth.

 

[UncleFluffy]

Put them on an on/on switch, and install it in your bass. Switch back and forth.

Match them to within 2%, then get someone else to switch back and forth while you have your eyes closed.

 

[warnergt]

This is right. Ceramic capacitors (especially in larger values) are the ones that sound bad. Any low leakage capacitor will do the job much better. Nasty caps are ceramic...

I couldn't disagree more. There is absolutely nothing "bad sounding"
about ceramic capacitors. At audio frequencies, they are nearly
ideal (as in perfect) capacitors. They are probably the most reliable
electronic components on the planet (except for applications with a
lot of physical vibration -- shouldn't be a problem in a bass).

Ceramic capacitors come in 5% tolerances just like every other
capacitor. I don't know why some of you insist they have a tolerance
problem. They don't.

 

[Derek Kiernan]

Ceramic capacitors come in 5% tolerances just like every other capacitor. I don't know why some of you insist they have a tolerance problem. They don't.

AVX 0.1uF 50V Leaded Ceramic Capacitor Axial +80-20% Z5U

Some ceramics used stock in instruments do have terrifying variance, but the manufacturers let you know how amazingly loose the tolerance is. It's just the users that often don't take note and blame the dielectric used.

 

[James Simonson]

I took some alligator clips and AB'd any cap I could find. It was interesting. It wasn't the same. They all seemed to roll off in different spots with subtle changes in the degree of slope. Some would do interesting things like turn the bass down a bit and then quickly roll off around 2 or 3 to an all dark smooth sound.

Some would "chill out" the bass without losing clarity while others (usually the dumb cheap ones) would have a hand over mouth muffle.

The biggest thing I noticed was that it effected how much and when the cap. kicked in.

Totally a tone geek thing and not recommended for everyone.

 

[okcrum]

Agreed.

Capacitor composition DOES produce an audible (if slight) difference in some high-voltage circuits, like in some parts of your amplifier.

Did you mean high frequency? There's most certainly a difference in impedance vs. frequency (and vs. age!) of various composition capacitors. Mostly this is caused by dielectric losses and geometry of the capacitor (distributed inductance).

Metal film, polypropylene, polystyrene, mylar, silvered mica, teflon, and even porcelain (!) are normally low loss and can be made to fairly tight tolerances, plus they age well. Paper caps of all types have never been very good, just cheap to make. They age badly, and this, along with the tolerance variations mentioned, probably accounts for much of the sound difference. Ceramic caps are expensive to make (and hold, with temperature changes) to tight tolerances but are otherwise not bad. Ceramics make great bypass capacitors for RF.

Audio gear of any quality does not use paper or ceramic capacitors for tone and eq. circuits.

 

[Derek Kiernan]

James, did you measure the capacitance of each with a meter? Were they all marked for the same value with good tolerances?

 

[willieG]

Wow.....sorry guys, I didn't know I was in the same room with some really knowledgable people.

I just go with my friends recommendations, most are bass players.......upgrading Fender gear.

Thanks for your views and I am taking notes.

WillieG

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Guys, whatever you say ... however can somebody help me explaining why in the Am. Original 60s jazz bass, which is provided with a paper in wax 0.47MFD cap from Fender, the tone control does its work whereas it doesn't do much in my Am. Pro. P bass and Am. Std. jazz bass which, as far as i know, are provided with ceramic caps?
Why? (Picture is from the pickguard of an Am. Original 50s P bass with cap of 1.00MFD).