Vocal pitch issues

[Five or Six]

Not unlike your band we are setup the same way. Band is well disciplined and if volumes (usually guitars) start to creep up the perp is told about it through the monitors. But, that is seldom necessary. Stage sound in our situations has to be controlled to avoid not hearing properly. Bring it up to you BL or in a band meeting. I have tinnitus and some hearing loss as well. Music and gunfire related.

 

[Deleted member 394512]

I would see an ENT and get a hearing test. Ears clean?

I had to see an ENT that was experienced with audio engineers and musicians on a regular basis to keep my hearing more consistent. If I had any debris or inflammation my sense of pitch was effected along with other issues. Your brain does a lot of hearing processing and gets tired. Maybe some sort of hearing fatigue?

 

[klyph]

Yes, your ears are getting fatigued, but so is your voice. In addition to protecting your hearing either through IEMs or plugs, you should be practicing your singing at home and doing daily exercises to strengthen your vocal cords. They have muscle memory, too, and that might help in a situation where a reference pitch is hard to come by. I’m just getting over some serious health problems which prevented me from singing for several months. While I can sing again and don’t have problems discerning pitch, I now have ZERO endurance and for the first time in my life am straining to hold a pitch at full voice on stage. Getting old sucks! I’m hoping with daily practice I can belt confidently like I used to.

 

[Who da Ville]

I've found myself terribly off key until I can get a clear reference from the nearest guitarist.

I've taken singing lessons for a few years, & this was one of my problems. A guitar player is playing the note he needs to sing (it's in the chord), whereas, for a bassist he needs to find the interval. The bass is playing a root note, but you need to sing a 3, a 5, or maybe a 6.

If you're not taking singing lessons, you might want to consider signing up. That may help you to find the intervals you're looking for.

 

[tothemax]

Great post and I feel your pain...
I've got a lot of years jamming with friends and such with a few a regular band gigs mixed in over the years. After 40+ years I'm pretty amazed that my hearing is as good as it is (just had a test and all is good). Anyway about 5 months ago joined a new band that practices regularly in a small space, and volume creep is a regular occurrence. There's a small PA, Leslie 3300 (keys), full drum kit, Mesa Boogie, Fender twin, and I'm running a BA115v2 (and barely keeping up). Anyway, I've started wearing ear plugs or I walk out of there sometimes with my ears ringing. I just do backup vocals, and it's really hard to hear myself in that mix. We only run the vocals through the PA. Even my bass gets washed out on some nights, these are great guys I play with and we are all in our 60's. I think part of it is that they have been playing at volume so long, they just don't notice the volume creep. I'm thinking about setting a couple of room mic's and creating a monitor mix, maybe try headphones.
Like I said I feel your pain... I hate finding out whether I'm on or off listening to the practice recording...
Cheers

 

[pglaser01]

Waaaaayyyy too easy, but you are correct to some extent. Without plugs or IEM, we're at the mercy of our drummer, who is a pretty aggressive hitter, and we play a lot of hard, heavy music. Ironically, our drummer is the only one who uses IEM, and he loves it. LOL. And he doesn't sing.

So, the rest of us (me on bass + 2 guitarists, all of us are DI using modelers) have to keep up with the drum level, and the FOH PA system is sizeable with pumping subwoofers, playing mostly in rooms of about 300 capacity, and our audience doesn't really expect a polite, well controlled volume. They show up to blow off steam. True warriors, they are.

All this pretty clearly indicates that my best bet is going to be IEM. Old dog, new tricks. Part of the joy of gigging has always been the energy of the show, and the room/PA volume has a lot to do with it. But after 40+ years of gigging this way, it's finally caught up to me and seriously impacting my (solo) vocal performances.

***Mainly, though, I was just wondering if anyone else out there has experienced the same as I have WRT getting pitch-confused due to dominant loud bass frequencies. If I want to continue singing lead vox, looks like I'll have to make the sacrifice and try IEM...of give up on singing lead (which would be fine with me).

The answer to your last part is , yes absolutely. Most of us at one point or another have experienced ear fatigue on stage to the point most frequencies become a sonic wash of mishmash, rendering pitch recognition on its own quite difficult.

That is one reason why those here who recommend IEMs may have adopted IEMs themselves. Ability locate and accurately reproduce pitch and volume accordingly while maintaining your hearing .

 

[Wasnex]

I generally wore ear plugs for all performances. In my experience even custom ER15s degrade the sound. Something called occlusion effect produces a bump in the low mids, the highs seem suppressed, and dynamic range seems greatly reduced. I would not say I like the results, but unfortunately I think of wearing ear plugs as a necessary evil.

For a while I was running a pair of HS4 HotSpots with volume controls. There were placed on mic stands just beyond arm reach at 45 degrees left and right. My goal was to set up the bass cab behind me and then space all three cabs to create the sensation that I was immersed in sound. Of course, if you move out of the sweet spot the phantom image that forms between the cabs collapses, and you hear primarily the cab that is closest.

The HotSpots are not high fidelity, but their frequency response contour did seem to work pretty well for vocals in combination with my ER15s. I ran a full monitor mix into them, usually minus bass. In really boomy rooms I added bass to the mix, which added a bit of extra clarity in the mids.

 

[Kevin Hailey]

Reading that this issue arises with volume and noise increase ... I'll have to be the one to say it ... turn down?

Congratulations! Post #14 and somebody finally provides the correct answer. The whole point of the bass is to provide a “reference pitch” for the entire band. If OP can’t find his vocal pitch from his bass note the onstage sound is not only too loud but must be atrocious.

 

[jimfist]

I would see an ENT and get a hearing test. Ears clean?

I had to see an ENT that was experienced with audio engineers and musicians on a regular basis to keep my hearing more consistent. If I had any debris or inflammation my sense of pitch was effected along with other issues. Your brain does a lot of hearing processing and gets tired. Maybe some sort of hearing fatigue?

My wife is a nurse practitioner and she checks my ears regularly when I complain if feels like they're blocked, and they never are. She also says I should get my ears checked by a professional. Long overdue, certainly.

 

[Gravy4001]

Great suggestions already. In ears will be a game changer, try to lower stage volume if you can lol, singing lessons. One thing that helped me is being so well-rehearsed on your vocal parts that you can sing them a cappella and just know/feel it's the correct pitch. If you can muscle memory the correct starting pitch then everything else should follow easily. Good luck and have fun!

 

[jimfist]

Congratulations! Post #14 and somebody finally provides the correct answer. The whole point of the bass is to provide a “reference pitch” for the entire band. If OP can’t find his vocal pitch from his bass note the onstage sound is not only too loud but must be atrocious.

Well, sort of yes and no. The part of the equation that contributes to the problem isn't the stage, but the room acoustics when our PA (pro quality subs & mid-high packs, taking full band mix with low-end to spare in the subs) levels get louder and louder as the night progresses as the number of patrons increases (partially filled room ---> crazy packed room).

With the subwoofers in such close proximity to the stage - I can literally step on one from where I stand - they will radiate into the stage. Add the fact that the venue acoustics (hit or miss) will bounce sound all over the room. Nightclub shows typically aren't such that the venue has spent any time or effort optimizing acoustics and speaker placement logistics: Here's the stage...here's where your PA goes, for better or worse. Our stage volume could be half of what it is and I'd still face the same challenges, perhaps to a lesser extent, but clearly dependent on the size of the venue, number of patrons, and existing acoustics.

All that said, the point is well taken. Certainly a quieter stage and a PA with less oomph would help. But as I said before, that's not what this gig is. We go middle of the road for a few tunes to warm the room up and then it's rock 'em sock 'em time, which is what our audience expects (as we've been doing for many years...decades). Our stage volume is what I'd call a healthy rock and roll volume, which in my world means that extended exposure leads to hearing problems, which I have. And I know that I'm responsible for that.

 

[jimfist]

Great suggestions already. In ears will be a game changer, try to lower stage volume if you can lol, singing lessons. One thing that helped me is being so well-rehearsed on your vocal parts that you can sing them a cappella and just know/feel it's the correct pitch. If you can muscle memory the correct starting pitch then everything else should follow easily. Good luck and have fun!

Good point that is probably contributing. Since Covid hit, a lot of gigs went away with some long breaks in between. I know my parts inside-out, so perhaps being a bit out of form is adding to the problem.

 

[SDC1-ClickClack]

Congratulations! Post #14 and somebody finally provides the correct answer. The whole point of the bass is to provide a “reference pitch” for the entire band. If OP can’t find his vocal pitch from his bass note the onstage sound is not only too loud but must be atrocious.

Your point about the volume levels probably being too high is valid, but I disagree with the idea that "the whole point of the bass is to provide a 'reference pitch' for the other musicians. That might be true in some songs, arrangements, and even musical genres, but it is not universally the bass player's main function. Many creative bass lines do not always focus on the root and may even provide a melodic counterpoint that does not mirror all notes of vocal melodies. I'm thinking of songs from The Beatles, Motown, XTC, progressive rock bands, and so on.

 

[Mildew Jones]

Jimfist, I feel ya, have been having that exact same issue over the last couple of years, it can be pretty disconcerting finding you're hearing something a WHOLE step off! I think it's an ear fatigue/aging thing, too...doesn't happen at the beginning of the night, but can get progressively worse thru the gig. I do wear IEM's in the band I hear that happen most, I keep the in ear volume reasonable. I usually have to key off another instrument (keys usually) to get myself back "on track", though playing a couple notes in a higher octave than where I am can also help get me back on pitch. This does pertain to singing in key, it's not a matter of me thinking instruments are out of tune.
Yeah, I have tinnitus issues, too.
Good Luck, please pass any pertinent info on you may discover, will keep an eye on this...
MJ

 

[Bullitt5135]

Besides turning down or switching to IEMs, my suggestion would be to keep the bass and guitar amps out of the vocals mics as much as possible. Plexi shields in front of the guitar amps. Super- or hypercardiod vocal mics. Aggressive gates on the vocal mics. Place the vocal mics off-axis to the amps. Place the wedges in the null of the vocal mics. Get a hearing test and see if you are deficient in certain frequencies, then take that into account when EQing your monitor.

The gear setup and wiring has more points for failure (IME) and can be an added cost...

All fair points. IME, I haven't had a single failure in over 100 gigs using my relatively inexpensive Phenyx Pro IEMs. At about $175 per band member, the IEMs are cheaper than most wedges. The most I have to deal with is occasionally changing the freq on a wireless unit, but I'll take that over monitor feedback any day of the week.

 

[ebo]

What post #23, #24, and #30 said. We’ve all been using our voice since birth, so we think singing should be a piece of cake but the voice is like any other instrument and needs practice. It’s actually harder than most, kind of like fretless bass, no reference like the OP mentioned. Even with IEM’s (I love them) you won’t always have an exact reference or it’ll be the third or fifth of what you need to sing. I joined a serious harmony influenced band a few years ago. I thought I could sing! Practice harmonies until your ears bleed. Muscle memory is your friend. And IEMs.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Besides turning down or switching to IEMs, my suggestion would be to keep the bass and guitar amps out of the vocals mics as much as possible. Plexi shields in front of the guitar amps. Super- or hypercardiod vocal mics. Aggressive gates on the vocal mics. Place the vocal mics off-axis to the amps. Place the wedges in the null of the vocal mics. Get a hearing test and see if you are deficient in certain frequencies, then take that into account when EQing your monitor.


All fair points. IME, I haven't had a single failure in over 100 gigs using my relatively inexpensive Phenyx Pro IEMs. At about $175 per band member, the IEMs are cheaper than most wedges. The most I have to deal with is occasionally changing the freq on a wireless unit, but I'll take that over monitor feedback any day of the week.

Gating vocal mics can be tricky finding the threshold that keeps the stage wash out yet will open when singing, good consistent staying on top of the mic is needed.
Don't go for a full off gate depth, about 10db is plenty and have a longer hold and release time so it's not closing too fast in between words or phrases.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Anyone else have this problem?: as I'm a bassist who doesn't use IEM in performances, I predominantly hear my amplified bass loudest in my part of the stage. We are an old-school loud rock band.

I find that as the night goes on, as things get louder and more chaotic on stage, subs pumping, and add a couple beers, I have difficulty finding reference pitch for singing. To my horror, I've found myself terribly off key until I can get a clear reference from the nearest guitarist. Really eye-opening stuff.

Otherwise, my vocal pitch isn't ever a problem at quiet/moderate volumes. It's purely a matter of being sonically pitch-disorented at extended loud volumes. Anyone else experience this? FWIW, I do have tinnitus and hearing loss (no surprise there), and have 40+ yrs of gigging under my belt.

Yeah, if you can't hear yourself sing, it's pretty much impossible to sing on pitch. Even Adelle who is very possibly one of the best vocalist ever ran into this at a big televised concert she did. The music was playing along and she wasn't even close to being on pitch. She was using in-ears and they weren't working. AND, the sound guys didn't get it fixed before the end of the song. She was a real trouper to try to sing her way through it, but if it can happen to her it can happen to anyone. That is why it is super important if you're a vocalist to have a good monitor pointed at your face.

 

[jimfist]

Besides turning down or switching to IEMs, my suggestion would be to keep the bass and guitar amps out of the vocals mics as much as possible. Plexi shields in front of the guitar amps. Super- or hypercardiod vocal mics. Aggressive gates on the vocal mics. Place the vocal mics off-axis to the amps. Place the wedges in the null of the vocal mics. Get a hearing test and see if you are deficient in certain frequencies, then take that into account when EQing your monitor.

All instruments on stage are DI, no back line, and fed through foldback monitors at front of stage. Audix vocal mics with high feedback rejection, and you really need to "get on the mic", which we do. Without going silent stage, we're pretty keen to minimize instrument bleed in vocal mics, other than the drums, which is hard to avoid. Good tips, though.

 

[Bullitt5135]

Gating vocal mics can be tricky finding the threshold that keeps the stage wash out yet will open when singing, good consistent staying on top of the mic is needed.
Don't go for a full off gate depth, about 10db is plenty and have a longer hold and release time so it's not closing too fast in between words or phrases.

Good points. Thanks for the clarification, Mike.