Vocal pitch issues

[jimfist]

Now, speaking of IEM systems, my next question:
Are all-analog wireless IEM a thing of the past, or are there any manufacturers still making them?
Reason for being partial to an analog wireless system is to avoid digital latency build-up: 2-3msec through my modeler, and then adding processing latency via digital mixer and digital IEM system, and now the latency starts to creep up to the point where I get concerned.

Analog IEM transmitter is a wish rather than a necessity, and so be it if it's just not in the cards. Is anyone using a stereo analog IEM system? If not, what is a good digital system, middle of the road price for transmitter/receiver/ear buds?

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Now, speaking of IEM systems, my next question:
Are all-analog wireless IEM a thing of the past, or are there any manufacturers still making them?
Reason for being partial to an analog wireless system is to avoid digital latency build-up: 2-3msec through my modeler, and then adding processing latency via digital mixer and digital IEM system, and now the latency starts to creep up to the point where I get concerned.

Analog IEM transmitter is a wish rather than a necessity, and so be it if it's just not in the cards. Is anyone using a stereo analog IEM system? If not, what is a good digital system, middle of the road price for transmitter/receiver/ear buds?

Lots of analog IEM systems, Shure, Sennheiser, Audio Technica all still make them.

 

[Stu on Bass]

I just found this thread, and it exactly describes what I've been experiencing! We've got a casual band, a few gigs but awesome weekly jam sessions. Room setup is quite good, but it can get loud. I find that it gets harder to discern pitch as the night progresses. I seem to be the only with the problem, which of course is a bit distressing. I'm 58, but not the oldest in the band! My hearing tested out fine.

I've got relatively inexpensive earplugs, trying to figure out where to go from here. Custom earplugs? IEMs? In our practice setup, we mic everything except the bass & drums (kick drum is mic'd), so IEMs would require some changes. Simply turning down would be nice but we're playing to the level of the drums.

Did you make any progress with your setup?

(My first talkbass post!)

Anyone else have this problem?: as I'm a bassist who doesn't use IEM in performances, I predominantly hear my amplified bass loudest in my part of the stage. We are an old-school loud rock band.

I find that as the night goes on, as things get louder and more chaotic on stage, subs pumping, and add a couple beers, I have difficulty finding reference pitch for singing. To my horror, I've found myself terribly off key until I can get a clear reference from the nearest guitarist. Really eye-opening stuff.

Otherwise, my vocal pitch isn't ever a problem at quiet/moderate volumes. It's purely a matter of being sonically pitch-disorented at extended loud volumes. Anyone else experience this? FWIW, I do have tinnitus and hearing loss (no surprise there), and have 40+ yrs of gigging under my belt.

 

[jimfist]

I just found this thread, and it exactly describes what I've been experiencing! We've got a casual band, a few gigs but awesome weekly jam sessions. Room setup is quite good, but it can get loud. I find that it gets harder to discern pitch as the night progresses. I seem to be the only with the problem, which of course is a bit distressing. I'm 58, but not the oldest in the band! My hearing tested out fine.

I've got relatively inexpensive earplugs, trying to figure out where to go from here. Custom earplugs? IEMs? In our practice setup, we mic everything except the bass & drums (kick drum is mic'd), so IEMs would require some changes. Simply turning down would be nice but we're playing to the level of the drums.

Did you make any progress with your setup?

(My first talkbass post!)

Welcome to TalkBass!
I recently did a gig and wore ear plugs for the whole night, but I insisted on not singing any lead vocals since I'm now so gun shy about it since my last episode. And sure as the sun comes up, there were times where I was testing my pitch against the band's music and I was significantly off.

I spoke with our guitarist about it and he said that he has a wireless IEM setup that he tried but doesn't use, and it's just been hanging around. Since he also owns the sound system we typically use, it should be pretty straightforward to get a decent mix for me at next gig's sound check. I hope it works out.

I guess he really wants me to continue singing lead vocals, even though I only do a couple of tunes, but would welcome a break from his singing lead a lot. So that's where I am right now. If this hadn't fallen in my lap, I doubt I'd have spent the $1000+ for an IEM system comparable to the one being offered to me. We don't gig often, so it may be a while before I can report back with my findings.

 

[eniac]

FWIW...

I did hundreds of shows in the ‘70s (the loud amp days when PAs carried only vocals), with no monitors because we didn't own any. The trick was to force my brain to EXCLUDE everything I was hearing except my own voice. I was going to say it was more of a psychological exercise than an auditory one, but I think there’s a better term for it. I find there’s a lot that comes through my inner ear structure that I can “latch onto” as well to stay on key.

Today I always refuse a personal monitor. If there’s one in front of me, I want it muted. If it’s an in-ear gig, I don’t even wear any, unless there’s a click track, and then all I request in my ears is the click, nothing else. That's how I learned.

So yeah, for me it was a self-training deal. But I can see how it might not work for everyone.

 

[4Mal]

Jim in my rock band, I run a Shure PSM300 and custom IEM from 64 Audio. e-kit, Preamp out for guitar and I run my pedal board. For me ... fantastic. Getting buds that truly isolate well is key.

In my folk rock band we are still using wedges but our stage volume is very low. I'd prefer IEM there but as we (I) mix from stage mostly, that isn't in the cards any time soon.

 

[Stu on Bass]

Welcome to TalkBass!
I recently did a gig and wore ear plugs for the whole night, but I insisted on not singing any lead vocals since I'm now so gun shy about it since my last episode. And sure as the sun comes up, there were times where I was testing my pitch against the band's music and I was significantly off.

I spoke with our guitarist about it and he said that he has a wireless IEM setup that he tried but doesn't use, and it's just been hanging around. Since he also owns the sound system we typically use, it should be pretty straightforward to get a decent mix for me at next gig's sound check. I hope it works out.

I guess he really wants me to continue singing lead vocals, even though I only do a couple of tunes, but would welcome a break from his singing lead a lot. So that's where I am right now. If this hadn't fallen in my lap, I doubt I'd have spent the $1000+ for an IEM system comparable to the one being offered to me. We don't gig often, so it may be a while before I can report back with my findings.

Cool, good luck! I'm interested to hear how it goes. I'm going to explore some better ear plugs, see if there's a good solution for me there.

 

[4Mal]

@Stu on Bass Scope Etymotic. I have sets of their 10 amd 20 db down. They pretty mich do what they say and they stay put reasonable well. I also have a set of their $120 ER3 IEM buds which is what I was using before 64Audio. The ER3ks are really quite good. I tried KZ10 pro's and couldn't make them work for me.

 

[Stu on Bass]

@Stu on Bass Scope Etymotic. I have sets of their 10 amd 20 db down. They pretty mich do what they say and they stay put reasonable well. I also have a set of their $120 ER3 IEM buds which is what I was using before 64Audio. The ER3ks are really quite good. I tried KZ10 pro's and couldn't make them work for me.

Thanks, I'll check those out!

 

[Groove Doctor]

it almost always is somehow tied to my trying to discern pitch from my bass in a loud room.

Mainly, though, I was just wondering if anyone else out there has experienced the same as I have WRT getting pitch-confused due to dominant loud bass frequencies. If I want to continue singing lead vox, looks like I'll have to make the sacrifice and try IEM...of give up on singing lead (which would be fine with me).

Try simple stuff first.

- Use a HPF on your bass when lead singing. Get rid of the mud.

- add more clarity to the bass tone. Switch to using a pick, or boost the necessary frequencies to aid your pitch.
eg. 400, 800, 1.6kHz.

- stand further away from drummer & guitarist if possible. If 3ft away & you move to 6ft away that makes quite a difference.

- have a chat about not getting louder as the night goes on. Establish some cues to let them know during a gig.

- How fit are you? Are you doing any serious cardio exercise regularly?
Cycling, swimming, mountain hiking, rowing machine, running, etc.
We tend to sing louder at loud gigs - maybe your breathing muscles are getting fatigued. (That’s when I notice my pitch issues the most).

 

[Lowbrow]

Thanks. I actually own that system. Our stage wedges are excellent, but the problem isn't my ability to hear my vocals or the others, but my inability to locate a reference pitch due to the extended loudness of it all.
I'm guessing that a full band mix IEM would help sort this situation out.

Now I don’t claim to be any good at it, but it can help to concentrate on hitting vowel sounds and letting consonants follow If that makes sense. You hear those better, too. This was my tool and it helped me

 

[Pep]

Anyone else have this problem?: as I'm a bassist who doesn't use IEM in performances, I predominantly hear my amplified bass loudest in my part of the stage. We are an old-school loud rock band.

I find that as the night goes on, as things get louder and more chaotic on stage, subs pumping, and add a couple beers, I have difficulty finding reference pitch for singing. To my horror, I've found myself terribly off key until I can get a clear reference from the nearest guitarist. Really eye-opening stuff.

Otherwise, my vocal pitch isn't ever a problem at quiet/moderate volumes. It's purely a matter of being sonically pitch-disorented at extended loud volumes. Anyone else experience this? FWIW, I do have tinnitus and hearing loss (no surprise there), and have 40+ yrs of gigging under my belt.

I've been dealing with the exact same thing for the past 2-3 years, so much so that I quit the band just last week after forming it 14 years ago.
Earbuds can help because you can control the volume, but if everyone in the band isn't disciplined enough to not crank it up after getting everything set, it's still a difficult situation.

 

[jimfist]

Try simple stuff first.

- Use a HPF on your bass when lead singing. Get rid of the mud.

- add more clarity to the bass tone. Switch to using a pick, or boost the necessary frequencies to aid your pitch.
eg. 400, 800, 1.6kHz.

- stand further away from drummer & guitarist if possible. If 3ft away & you move to 6ft away that makes quite a difference.

- have a chat about not getting louder as the night goes on. Establish some cues to let them know during a gig.

- How fit are you? Are you doing any serious cardio exercise regularly?
Cycling, swimming, mountain hiking, rowing machine, running, etc.
We tend to sing louder at loud gigs - maybe your breathing muscles are getting fatigued. (That’s when I notice my pitch issues the most).

Thank you for the suggestions. I suspect that IEM is going to provide the most likely solution to my issue. I've not had the opportunity to use IEM live yet.
This problem goes back at least 15 years, but was only on odd occasion over the course of 100+ performances annually. These days, I gig infrequently and can almost bank on "pitch disorientation" by mid-point of our first set.

This not a singing ABILITY problem or one where I can't hear myself when I'm singing (our stage wedges are top notch pro gear), but one where the coordination between my "mind's ear" references me to a pitch that is not accurate to the ACTUAL pitch happening in the outside real world. Always a couple notes lower (flat) of true reference pitch. I chalk it up to me primarily focusing on my bass instrument for pitch reference combined with a generally loud environment (I do wear ear plugs) along with aging ears (tinnitus & reduced high end) and the effects of a small amount of alcohol consumption.

We're can get pretty loud as a group (rock/hard rock/metal), and I don't see that changing as "we are what we are", and that's what our audience is expecting. I will also add that even when doing low-key acoustic guitar/bass guitar pub duo gigs, this would happen when a little too much alcohol was consumed. So there's that.

Though I'm sure I could be more fit, this was still happening when I was in great shape with a rigid workout routine.

 

[jimfist]

I've been dealing with the exact same thing for the past 2-3 years, so much so that I quit the band just last week after forming it 14 years ago.
Earbuds can help because you can control the volume, but if everyone in the band isn't disciplined enough to not crank it up after getting everything set, it's still a difficult situation.

I'm not going to hang up the cleats over this since it doesn't impact my ability to play bass. But I'm not going to risk making a fool out of myself and bandmates by continuing to sing lead vox (albeit quite limited) until I'm sure that this pitch disorientation issue is solved.

 

[Wasnex]

Now, speaking of IEM systems, my next question:
Are all-analog wireless IEM a thing of the past, or are there any manufacturers still making them?
Reason for being partial to an analog wireless system is to avoid digital latency build-up: 2-3msec through my modeler, and then adding processing latency via digital mixer and digital IEM system, and now the latency starts to creep up to the point where I get concerned.

Analog IEM transmitter is a wish rather than a necessity, and so be it if it's just not in the cards. Is anyone using a stereo analog IEM system? If not, what is a good digital system, middle of the road price for transmitter/receiver/ear buds?

FYI SPL does have a known impact on pitch perception. I don't remember the particulars, but perhaps you could find a published paper on the subject and learn whether you need to push the pitch up or down.

I also think lowering the overall stage volume would be a god idea.

 

[Groove Doctor]

but one where the coordination between my "mind's ear" references me to a pitch that is not accurate to the ACTUAL pitch happening in the outside real world. Always a couple notes lower (flat) of true reference pitch

That’s something entirely different. If you’re several notes away then it’s something completely different.

I used to get that a LOT more with certain cabs or PA setups. It’s almost entirely gone with modern setups, boutique gear & acoustically treated spaces.

Also worse when the PA hasn’t been tuned to the room. Certain pitches of standing waves would fatigue my ear leading up to it.

I almost completely eliminated my tinnitus & hyperacusis when I did 4 months of oral B12 supplement, specifically METHYLcobalamin (NOT cyanocobalamin). Dr Mercola’s thru Amazon. Pitch issue has almost entirely gone too.

 

[jimfist]

That’s something entirely different. If you’re several notes away then it’s something completely different.

I used to get that a LOT more with certain cabs or PA setups. It’s almost entirely gone with modern setups, boutique gear & acoustically treated spaces.

Also worse when the PA hasn’t been tuned to the room. Certain pitches of standing waves would fatigue my ear leading up to it.

I almost completely eliminated my tinnitus & hyperacusis when I did 4 months of oral B12 supplement, specifically METHYLcobalamin (NOT cyanocobalamin). Dr Mercola’s thru Amazon. Pitch issue has almost entirely gone too.

Interesting. Thank you!

 

[jimfist]

FYI SPL does have a known impact on pitch perception. I don't remember the particulars, but perhaps you could find a published paper on the subject and learn whether you need to push the pitch up or down.

I also think lowering the overall stage volume would be mm

FYI SPL does have a known impact on pitch perception. I don't remember the particulars, but perhaps you could find a published paper on the subject and learn whether you need to push the pitch up or down.

I also think lowering the overall stage volume would be a god idea.

Yes, but without a controlled IEM system, overall stage and FOH volume are out of my hands, even with bandmates who are well-intentioned.

 

[4StringDave]

Turn down?

 

[retslock]

Anyone else have this problem?: as I'm a bassist who doesn't use IEM in performances, I predominantly hear my amplified bass loudest in my part of the stage. We are an old-school loud rock band.

I find that as the night goes on, as things get louder and more chaotic on stage, subs pumping, and add a couple beers, I have difficulty finding reference pitch for singing. To my horror, I've found myself terribly off key until I can get a clear reference from the nearest guitarist. Really eye-opening stuff.

Otherwise, my vocal pitch isn't ever a problem at quiet/moderate volumes. It's purely a matter of being sonically pitch-disorented at extended loud volumes. Anyone else experience this? FWIW, I do have tinnitus and hearing loss (no surprise there), and have 40+ yrs of gigging under my belt.

Yes, I have difficulty if I can't hear the guitar. I know my bass is in tune and I'm playing the right notes but my ears are telling me otherwise. I put it down to hearing fatigue. We've been surrounded by loud music for many years and the ears just don't hear the way they used to when subjected to high volumes.