- timing (different lines, rhythms)
- tuning (a single note way down in register to tune with, compared to 4-6 note chords high up in register)
It's harder. But practice works. After all, singer-pianists play with two hands and sing...
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Vocals and Bass
- Thread starter Stedkey
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- worship bass
- timing (different lines, rhythms)
- tuning (a single note way down in register to tune with, compared to 4-6 note chords high up in register)
It's harder. But practice works. After all, singer-pianists play with two hands and sing...
I play drums, bass and guitar in that order. I've gigged on all three. It was tricky learning to sing (some lead, lots of BGV) behind the drums but not too hard. Though I am not an elite guitarist I always found it very easy to sing while playing (esp. strumming/playing chords).
Singing while playing bass is a whole different animal IMO and I think that's because of the content of what we play - mostly single notes with specific (and very important) timing. It takes a lot of DOING it to get it going. And there are just some times I can't sing anything while playing (certain songs, certain parts of songs etc.) .
My brain switches quickly, moment to moment, from hands to mouth and back again, focusing all/most of my focus on playing or singing, with constant interchange between the two. Sometimes it necessitates simplifying the bass part if my vocal is critical to that moment, or simplifying the vocal if the bass part is critical to that moment. But vox rules if it comes down to it.
My best advice:
1. don't give up on it, ever - just keep trying, even while just practicing at home...sing quietly to yourself.
2. Learn the bass and vox parts cold...makes it more of a muscle-memory exercise
Singing while playing bass is a whole different animal IMO and I think that's because of the content of what we play - mostly single notes with specific (and very important) timing. It takes a lot of DOING it to get it going. And there are just some times I can't sing anything while playing (certain songs, certain parts of songs etc.) .
My brain switches quickly, moment to moment, from hands to mouth and back again, focusing all/most of my focus on playing or singing, with constant interchange between the two. Sometimes it necessitates simplifying the bass part if my vocal is critical to that moment, or simplifying the vocal if the bass part is critical to that moment. But vox rules if it comes down to it.
My best advice:
1. don't give up on it, ever - just keep trying, even while just practicing at home...sing quietly to yourself.
2. Learn the bass and vox parts cold...makes it more of a muscle-memory exercise
It's the timing you're not used to.
First like many say, k ow both parts equally well.
Take baby steps by playing root notes to start, having key target words and notes. Then move up to playing songs that say involve root-5, then root, b7, and 5, or something like that.
The more you do it, the easier it becomes so you won't have to think about it.
It's a cliché but when riding a bicycle you don't have to concentrate on balance and pedaling anymore, but in the beginning that was the main focus. With effort you'll move beyond thinking about every detail and most of it will happen naturally.
I recommend recording yourself and playing with a metronome/drum track to help you know where your progress is.
It can also help just humming a melody as you play.
I used to let the recording play as I while I sang and played along with it. It seems to feel less naked than just practicing with the bass alone.
Finally my greatest advice and this goes for any practice; mentally do this, practice singing and playing in your head and it will speed up the process. Feel the notes and vocals flowing together. You know how it feels to sing the song and also how it feels to play it, mentally going over this will glue the 2 together.
First like many say, k ow both parts equally well.
Take baby steps by playing root notes to start, having key target words and notes. Then move up to playing songs that say involve root-5, then root, b7, and 5, or something like that.
The more you do it, the easier it becomes so you won't have to think about it.
It's a cliché but when riding a bicycle you don't have to concentrate on balance and pedaling anymore, but in the beginning that was the main focus. With effort you'll move beyond thinking about every detail and most of it will happen naturally.
I recommend recording yourself and playing with a metronome/drum track to help you know where your progress is.
It can also help just humming a melody as you play.
I used to let the recording play as I while I sang and played along with it. It seems to feel less naked than just practicing with the bass alone.
Finally my greatest advice and this goes for any practice; mentally do this, practice singing and playing in your head and it will speed up the process. Feel the notes and vocals flowing together. You know how it feels to sing the song and also how it feels to play it, mentally going over this will glue the 2 together.
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Right, I use both too, even with a pick. I mute with whatever is in reach, even the pick itself when it sounds good.
I never look for formalism, just efficiency in good sound.I can do bends, but recently I broke an E string, and mistuned a major third or so high, right at the outset, being too hasty because I was playing at a party that same night and snapped the old one while practising (best time, no doubt..). It rang so badly at fundamental pitch that I assumed I'd stretched the coils open too much, and a later (and careful) restring without problems left me assuming that stretching strings that much might be troublesome. It makes me reluctant to even bend a whole tone, but the way I like playing, there's little call for that or vibrato. Plenty of slides, though, oh yes...
I’ve always made horrible noises from my mouth hole while I play. I agree with others that it is more natural when strumming on a guitar. I tend to write more easily with a guitar too. But if you work at it you can sing and play bass properly just like you can sing and play drums. When I am learning to sing a new part I break it up into measures and beat in my head the bass landings a few at a time so it becomes automatic. I also admit I’m not Sting and I have to sometimes simplify the bass line in a verse. Good news is if there are “words” that’s the focus so nobody would notice my cheating.
I remember still being a beginner and Once in a Lifetime was on. Not a complicated bass line but the opposition to the backing vocals, I was so impressed with Tina Weymouth just letting the brain do the work.
Just break into chunks.
I remember still being a beginner and Once in a Lifetime was on. Not a complicated bass line but the opposition to the backing vocals, I was so impressed with Tina Weymouth just letting the brain do the work.
Just break into chunks.
I would have to go check, but I don't think I typically bend a whole step on bass. The way I use it is more like a blue note or a flip, rather than hitting specific notes. It definitely not something I do all the time.
Learn to sing the Jack Bruce lines in "Sunshine of Your Love" while playing the contrapuntal bass part. Then it all starts to make sense.
Also, if if you use a pick while strumming the acoustic guitar chords, maybe try using a pick for a bit on bass so that it feels more familiar.
Once you get reoriented by doing these "gateway" moves, you can start branching out more.
Also, if if you use a pick while strumming the acoustic guitar chords, maybe try using a pick for a bit on bass so that it feels more familiar.
Once you get reoriented by doing these "gateway" moves, you can start branching out more.
I practice singing sounds while I play bass, so that when I actually get the lyrics down, I have some sense of what kind of sound I might want to sing already. even just some la-la-la-la while doing a bass part. it gets you going, the muscles moving, etc.
For me, I think it comes down to the mental job of forming two independent melodies: The vocal melody and the bass line melody. Often different rhythms, pitches and where in the harmony, directions…plus recall/accessing the lyric. Like live counterpoint.
Why this is different from guitar and voice for me is that strumming or plucking chords on the guitar is rhythm mental job, not melodic, with the fingers in the chording hand forming a shape and moving/changing with the rhythm.
so improvement for me came from
1. Totally knowing the singing melody and lyric part away from the bass. Not having to read or work to recall.
2. Greater automaticity in forming the bassline, which is live composition of that melody but also common patterns.
it helps to take baby steps like playing And singing a really simple song like ABC and scatting over blues.
Why this is different from guitar and voice for me is that strumming or plucking chords on the guitar is rhythm mental job, not melodic, with the fingers in the chording hand forming a shape and moving/changing with the rhythm.
so improvement for me came from
1. Totally knowing the singing melody and lyric part away from the bass. Not having to read or work to recall.
2. Greater automaticity in forming the bassline, which is live composition of that melody but also common patterns.
it helps to take baby steps like playing And singing a really simple song like ABC and scatting over blues.
Not sure if this helps to explain why it is happening, but... I have read and watched interviews with bassists who also sing (and other instrumentalists who sing). The common idea among them is that one of the two things needs to be done without thinking. You either need to learn the bass parts to the point where you can play without thinking and focus only on the vocals, or vice versa.
Nothing wrong with learning each part really well, but this frequently does not help you understand how the two lines work together.
My approach is similar to playing piano. I figure out how the lines interact and then do both as if bass and voice is one instrument. I read music and it can be very helpful to see both lines written out. Then you can see how the syncopations link together and work through them.
Start as slow as necessary so that you can actually comprehend the rhythms presented by all notes (both instruments) in order. If necessary, prioritize the timing over the pitches. Once you figure out how to cover the rhythms, it will be easier to nail the pitches (IMHO). As it starts to become automatic, slowly increase the tempo.
When you write both lines out you might get something that looks like this:
Image copied from: Pitch (timothymichaelrolls.com) but the page really has little to do with this subject.
Notice you can see how the lines work together. Where both lines play at the same time, and where one plays a new note while the other is sustained.
Consider drawing in the pulses:
Now you see how each line relates to the other, and also how each line relates to the beat.
If you can, work through the rhythms in your head. No need for a bass or singing. Get used to the way the two lines interact rhythmically, without even worrying about plucking or hitting pitches.
My approach is similar to playing piano. I figure out how the lines interact and then do both as if bass and voice is one instrument. I read music and it can be very helpful to see both lines written out. Then you can see how the syncopations link together and work through them.
Start as slow as necessary so that you can actually comprehend the rhythms presented by all notes (both instruments) in order. If necessary, prioritize the timing over the pitches. Once you figure out how to cover the rhythms, it will be easier to nail the pitches (IMHO). As it starts to become automatic, slowly increase the tempo.
When you write both lines out you might get something that looks like this:
Image copied from: Pitch (timothymichaelrolls.com) but the page really has little to do with this subject.
Notice you can see how the lines work together. Where both lines play at the same time, and where one plays a new note while the other is sustained.
Consider drawing in the pulses:
Now you see how each line relates to the other, and also how each line relates to the beat.
If you can, work through the rhythms in your head. No need for a bass or singing. Get used to the way the two lines interact rhythmically, without even worrying about plucking or hitting pitches.
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Same, it took a lot of work. I’m was ok until until the “take a little trip line”. I do eventually get it.
But I wouldn’t try for four hours straight! Do 30 minutes really slow, come back in a day or two and do another 30 minutes.
It is hard. It takes a lot of practice. As others have suggested, you need to have the bass part down and the lyrics down and it helps to have the feel of the song down too. I think it has something to do with how you need to control your fingers on both hands somewhat independently compared to strumming chords. I have no idea how Sting does it and makes it look so easy. Some observations from my experience:
* I have an easier time singing tenor (~ a third above melody) than I do singing melody while playing bass.
* I have an easier time adding typical bassist (e.g. Michael Anthony) background vocals than I do singing lead.
* Playing Syncopated and busy lines while singing are harder than basic driving 1/4's and 1/8's
* I feel the same challenge when playing and singing more complex fingerstyle songs like Blackbird and Tears in Heaven on Acoustic. Blackbird is somewhat easier due to the evenness of the rhythm.
If anyone figures out the magic formula to playing and singing like Sting, please share. LOL.
Edit: I will add, one of the most challenging things I ever tried to do was add a whistle part at the end of a song (while playing bass). I sang lead and played bass for the tune, which I had to modify to make it happen - then at the end wanted a whistle part. I can whistle all day long, but as soon as I try to whistle while playing bass...Nope. Nothing. Zero control. I expect it would take a lot of time and effort to make it happen.
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Because you’re basically soloing while you play and sing. Guitarists don’t usually do that. Making your parts straight (straight whole notes, quarter notes etc) for when you sing is a way to fake your way through it a bit and get used to the rhythm while singing side, but more complex parts will definitely take lots of practice.
I have found that using just one finger or a pick helps sometimes depending on the song. I have a theory that it’s easier to strum and sing than fingerstyle because of using the opposable thumb that we humans so prize.
When doing the standard rest stroke fingerstyle most bassists do, the thumb just hangs there for balance and resting/muting.I notice I tend to think less when I use a pick, and the same exact tone just can’t be achieved with fingers. There are so many killer picked bass lines out there also.
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I have, in many decades of playing gigs, sang lead and played bass on one song with one band - a very simple song, with a simple rhythm. I've never been any good at playing normal grooves and singing. Given the limitations of my voice (bass range, not really suitable for rock music), I've never really worried about working on that aspect of things. I'm a bass player; if your band has low enough standards where you'd let me sing, your band isn't good enough for me to join.
I use bends and vibrato on a lot of my playing but not the flamboyant obvious guitar style, just a subtle amount that sounds more like a thickening than an obvious bend or vibrato. It's probably done like that on a lot more recordings than you realise. Often when people ask how to EQ their amp for a particular "fat" tone this is what they really want.
That's just my method. I'm sure I took a bathroom break or two, but I usually make a lot of progress in those marathon crunch sessions. That's what made this particular song frustrating. Interestingly, once I gave up on playing the bass line exactly as recorded, developing my cheat happened really fast. And the great thing about it is nobody notices unless I point it out. I played Low Rider in a biker bar, which instantly sent a bunch of guys into their own little Nirvanah, and they were all completely happy with the way I played it.
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