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Vocoder/Talk Box type of effect for bass?

Matthew_84

Matthew_84

Nov 7, 2010
6,497
5,101
Greater Toronto Area, Canada
#1
Hi all,

I'm looking for a specific sort of an effect... A typical vocoder/talk box allows you to sing through your instrument. Noise only comes out of your bass/guitar when you breathe/sing, but also, the pitch of your singing effects the tone of the guitar... People familiar with Peter Frampton's work know this effect well.

I'm looking for a device that only does the former (there is only an output from the bass when you breathe). I do not want to sing through this thing or have my bass's tone effected by my voice.

I simply want to use my hands (fretting and picking) to determine the tone/pitch. I only want to use my breath to control the volume output of the bass.

Anything like this exist?
 
#2
The way a talkbox works is the sound from your instrument is sent through the tube, which you stuff in your piehole. You move your mouth in front of a mic, and the mic picks that up. You don't affect the sound of the instrument signal directly: basically it uses your mouth as a kind of reverb chamber/ formant filter and that is picked up by a mic going to a PA. This is the Frampton effect

A vocoder uses a microphone that plugs into the unit along with your instrument. You sing, and the unit alters the pitch of your vocal based on what you're playing. This is the Daft Punk effect.

If you aren't singing, and you don't want to alter tone, then all you really want is a volume control? I honestly don't get it.
 
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#4
Sounds like you're looking for what's called a "breath controller." Yamaha used to make one called the BC3A.

image.jpeg image.jpeg


It was basically a simplified version of what was in their awesome WX11 electronic wind controller (below):

image.jpeg


It consists of a simple mouthpiece and an interface that converts the pressure of your breath into MIDI data that could then be mapped out to whatever parameter you wanted to control. In your case you'd want to map it to a VCA's volume. Or a volume pedal that accepts MIDI control.

I don't know if there's a simpler way to do it.

There's a product by TEControl that's a modern version of the discontinued Yamaha product. Webpage Invalid Link Removed.

Here's a demo and review:



If you're inventive and good at electronics tinkering you could always work up something simpler of your own using some tubing and a pressure sensor hooked into a volume control and possibly avoid the whole MIDI/digital hassle. But that would require research and experimentation on your end. Can't help you much there. Maybe one of our resident electronics gurus could point you in a direction to proceed with that.
 
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#5
40Hz said:
Sounds like you're looking for what's called a "breath controller." Yamaha used to make one called the BC3A.

View attachment 997512 View attachment 997511


It was basically a simplified version of what was in their awesome WX11 electronic wind controller (below):

View attachment 997510

It consists of a simple mouthpiece and an interface that converts the pressure of your breath into MIDI data that could then be mapped out to whatever parameter you wanted to control. In your case you'd want to map it to a VCA's volume. Or a volume pedal that accepts MIDI control.

I don't know if there's a simpler way to do it.

There's a product by TEControl that's a modern version of the discontinued Yamaha product. Webpage Invalid Link Removed.

Here's a demo and review:



If you're inventive and good at electronics tinkering you could always work up something simpler of your own using some tubing and a pressure sensor hooked into a volume control and possibly avoid the whole MIDI/digital hassle. But that would require research and experimentation on your end. Can't help you much there. Maybe one of our resident electronics gurus could point you in a direction to proceed with that.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's exactly what I'm looking for! I know Billy Preston used to use one with his keyboard, but I didn't realize it was a MIDI device.

Your talk of a pressure sensor has got me brainstorming though... I'll think it through a bit more, maybe something will come to me. Thanks!
 
#6
Matthew_84 said:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm looking for! I know Billy Preston used to use one with his keyboard, but I didn't realize it was a MIDI device.

Your talk of a pressure sensor has got me brainstorming though... I'll think it through a bit more, maybe something will come to me. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Actually, a pressure transducer (i.e. converts variable air pressure to a variable voltage) is probably the more correct term. Not every sensor will do that. Some are just set to trip if they detect a PSI over or under a certain reading, so you'd want something that provides a range of voltages rather than it just be what amounts to an on/off switch.

Some good background info and links to be found here.

(My GF owns and plays a WX11 so I needed to get somewhat up on this stuff since I'm her tech. Her decision. Not mine. :help:)
 
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#7
40Hz said:
Actually, a pressure transducer (i.e. converts variable air pressure to a variable voltage) is probably the more correct term. Not every sensor will do that. Some are just set to trip if they detect a PSI over or under a certain reading, so you'd want something that provides a range of voltages rather than it just be what amounts to an on/off switch.

Some good background info and links to be found here.

(My GF owns and plays a WX11 so I needed to get somewhat up on this stuff since I'm her tech. Her decision. Not mine. :help:)
Click to expand...
Yes, a pressure transducer is correct. I actually am a Building Automation Technician and use static air pressure transducers regularly. They read static air pressure and output a linear 0-5vdc/0-10vdc/4-20mA depending on static air pressure (airflow) sensed and range set in the transducer...

I've been looking into it a bit, and wiring this up to some sort of digital potentiometer may work. If so, I'd need a 120/24vac transformer, a power chord, an enclosure to mount this all in, a bypass footswitch, some wires, some solder, lots of trial and error, and maybe a few resistors to achieve this, but it seems like it could cost $200 (if I'm lucky), but I've never built an audio circuit (pedal/effect) before, and this could be a hum machine... If it even works.

I'm more interested in doing some sort of pneumatic/mechanical solution... Like an air tube that fills a diaphragm and spins (somehow) a rotary potentiometer, that spins the other way as the diaphragm deflates... This option seems like it would require a lot more engineering though and some fabrication which is out of my capabilities.

EDIT TO ADD: Part of my preference for the mechanical solution, is with the electronic system I mentioned above, once you blow air in, it would still pressurize the sensor as the air slowly leaks out (unless you suck it out), meaning it may take a while to mute the sound - in fact the natural sustain of the strings may choke out the note first. Also, spit may eventually damage some of the electronics. A mechanical solution seems better equipped to deal with both scenarios.
 
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#8
You would have gotten along with my old man. He was a mechanical engineer who did a lot of industrial engineering before shifting over to aircraft gas turbine design. His specialty was transmission systems and recirculating super chargers for those engines.

FWIW there's a couple of real wizards when it comes to effects boxes here. Josh Broughton of Broughton Audio (TB member Azure Skies) is somebody you might want to spin it by. Who knows? Maybe if you could get a workable and affordable analog breath controller module, it might be something he'd be interested in incorporating into some of what he does. Or at least maybe he could point you at what you need to be thinking about when it comes to pedals.

I personally think adding breath control to something like a flanger or phaser would be tool cool for words.
 
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#9
40Hz said:
You would have gotten along with my old man. He was a mechanical engineer who did a lot of industrial engineering before shifting over to aircraft gas turbine design. His specialty was transmission systems and recirculating super chargers for those engines.

FWIW there's a couple of real wizards when it comes to effects boxes here. Josh Broughton of Broughton Audio (TB member Azure Skies) is somebody you might want to spin it by. Who knows? Maybe if you could get a workable and affordable analog breath controller module, it might be something he'd be interested in incorporating into some of what he does. Or at least maybe he could point you at what you need to be thinking about when it comes to pedals.

I personally think adding breath control to something like a flanger or phaser would be tool cool for words.
Click to expand...
Good thinking! I'd think it could be real cool with a tremolo as well.
 
#10
Matthew_84 said:
Good thinking! I'd think it could be real cool with a tremolo as well.
Click to expand...

Sure. Or an envelope. Or a ...

Anything you want more expression out of. And what's more sensitive or expressive than our mouth? Look at all the shading and inflections we do with our voices when we're talking. And all the other...um...creative things we use it for. Most people who try a Frampton style talk box catch on in less than twenty seconds how to use one. I play a little wind synth myself and it's funny how fast you nail the breath and lip control on a WX11. If you know the fingering (simplified Boehm on the WX11) you're on it in no time.
 
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#11
40Hz said:
Sure. Or an envelope. Or a ...

Anything you want more expression out of. And what's more sensitive or expressive than our mouth? Look at all the shading and inflections we do with our voices when we're talking. And all the other...um...creative things we use it for. Most people who try a Frampton style talk box catch on in less than twenty seconds how to use one. I play a little wind synth myself and it's funny how fast you nail the breath and lip control on a WX11. If you know the fingering (simplified Boehm on the WX11) you're on it in no time.
Click to expand...
This idea is really intriguing to me.

I am definitely more focused on the mechanical/pneumatic solution and have went through some designs in my head, but have no idea how I could turn that idea into a working physical model... I'd think some sort of 3D printer would be needed (or I find the right parts, chambers, and gears and re-purpose them).
 
#12
Matthew_84 said:
This idea is really intriguing to me.

I am definitely more focused on the mechanical/pneumatic solution and have went through some designs in my head, but have no idea how I could turn that idea into a working physical model... I'd think some sort of 3D printer would be needed (or I find the right parts, chambers, and gears and re-purpose them).
Click to expand...

I'm an IT guy not an engineer sonI couldn't guess how to do it mechanically. But computer guru Don Lancaster once said the most efficient way to do things is to mix "the hard and the soft." He said some guys do eveything with thousands of lines of code. Others with a bushel basket of chips. But thry don't realize sometimes a simple timing capacitor can eliminate the need for for a thousand lines of complex code. And sometimes a few dozen lines of elegant code can eliminate the need for a rack of fancy circuitry.

An Arduino isn't difficult to learn to program. And that'll interface quite easily with a variety of sensors. It was primarily designed to interface with the physical world. So that's also something to think about. It's the Silly Putty of the homebrew engineering world.

If the full mechanical Steampunk approach works better for you, by all means go for it. That's kinda cool actually. But tuck the word Arduino in the back of your head just in case.
 
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#13
40Hz said:
I'm an IT guy not an engineer sonI couldn't guess how to do it mechanically. But computer guru Don Lancaster once said the most efficient way to do things is to mix "the hard and the soft." He said some guys do eveything with thousands of lines of code. Others with a bushel basket of chips. But thry don't realize sometimes a simple timing capacitor can eliminate the need for for a thousand lines of complex code. And sometimes a few dozen lines of elegant code can eliminate the need for a rack of fancy circuitry.

An Arduino isn't difficult to learn to program. And that'll interface quite easily with a variety of sensors. It was primarily designed to interface with the physical world. So that's also something to think about. It's the Silly Putty of the homebrew engineering world.

If the full mechanical Steampunk approach works better for you, by all means go for it. That's kinda cool actually. But tuck the word Arduino in the back of your head just in case.
Click to expand...
I saw that name thrown about last night a little bit while googling motorized potentiometers... I'll take a deeper look into it.

My main concern with an electrical solution is what do with the built-up saliva as well as how to depresserize the sensor when you stop blowing, but maybe a diaphragm could work in for this solution as well.

Got some more brainstorming to do for sure.
 
#14
I never noticed a saliva build up with any wind controllers I've used. But I come out of a woodwind rather than a brass background so I don't automatically "juice up" like the jazz crowd does when I play.

The breath controllers all had exit venting (i.e. pinholes). And they provided a sensitivity adjustment so the player could tune them to be as soft as a recorder or as resistant as a baritone sax.
 
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#16
40Hz said:
I never noticed a saliva build up with any wind controllers I've used. But I come out of a woodwind rather than a brass background so I don't automatically "juice up" like the jazz crowd does when I play.

The breath controllers all had exit venting (i.e. pinholes). And they provided a sensitivity adjustment so the player could tune them to be as soft as a recorder or as resistant as a baritone sax.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Thanks for the insight.
 
#18
The MIDI breath solution would use the breath controller into something that takes its output (still a few options but you are not going to trip on them waking down the street). Then the MIDI stream needs to go to something affecting volume, so probably back to analog via MIDI to CV into the control input of a VCA.

All analog would use an envelope follower detecting your program signal directly into the VCA. You could sing and just use the volume tracking of the mike signal to drive the envelope follower. The analog breath function would require some version of an analog breath controller. The Akai EWI was an example of that type of controller but a determined tinkerer could probably build a DIY version. You might be able to make a circuit to take the Yamaha BC output and just output a voltage to drive the envelope follower.

Kinda depends on if you really want breath control or if singing volume is an option.

Otto
 

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