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Double Bass Walking and soloing and practice.

Peter Dalla said:
That was in response to the "get the Parker Omnibook" suggestion. I never said to avoid transcribing, as I said, "reading transcriptions...", pretty clear, yeah?

I would say that the act of transcribing is more about the act of transferring idea to instrument through training the ear to hear with more clarity than it is about acquiring vocabulary or finding out "what works".

Hmmm... well, it's good ear training for sure, but if you dig deeper inside the excercise and play along exactly as I mentioned you can get other things out of it too. Especially the feeling of good swinging 8thnotes (assuming you transcribed a tune in the "swing" idiom).

It's also useful to analyze the solo theoretically and see common patterns, "licks", where tension builds up and so forth.

You can also make excercises based on the transcriptions... There have been things written on the subject especially by David Liebman...

Anyway, I DO think that transcription IS a good way to find out what "works". When I started I sounded awfully "unmelodic" and realized I had to do transcription work of the s*** I dug. Some stuff off Miles' solo on "Someday my prince will come" opened up a new world to me!

But I respect your experience and so forth and find those little excercises quite interesting! I'd be glad to hear if you have any further insight in that area...

/lovebown
 
DURRL mentioned FOGHORN a few posts back. About a year ago, with TB still in its era of being fog-warned, I waded into a post with the idea that walking and soloing are different things. FOGGIE jumped on the point and asked me why I would make such a distinction -- shouldn't your walking lines be given all the hard work and benefit of your musical intelligence that your solos get?

Here it is a year later and I'm still chewing on that one...

Check out the CLEGHORN's work on the TB/DB sampler, that 10-minute blues in C towards the end of the second disk. That straight four walking he lays down is as nice as any solo. The solo's pretty decent too...
 
Damon Rondeau said:
DURRL mentioned FOGHORN a few posts back. About a year ago, with TB still in its era of being fog-warned, I waded into a post with the idea that walking and soloing are different things. FOGGIE jumped on the point and asked me why I would make such a distinction -- shouldn't your walking lines be given all the hard work and benefit of your musical intelligence that your solos get?

Here it is a year later and I'm still chewing on that one...

Check out the CLEGHORN's work on the TB/DB sampler, that 10-minute blues in C towards the end of the second disk. That straight four walking he lays down is as nice as any solo. The solo's pretty decent too...

Didn't Ray Parker say something to that effect in this thread?

I played the download, noisy crowd, nice piano player.

I also found these things in the locked thread at the top of this forum

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47231

David K. seems to be making some of the same points.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33581&highlight=walking+AND+Theory
 
The reality of the gig world is that will either be OK with the folks you are working with and they will bear with you, orthey will not and they'll hire soembody else.
Well I've been giging with my fellow students lately, so they bare with me it's cool.
I'm studying with Sean Smith, he is a great player and teacher. To tell the truth, alot of what we deal with in terms of improv is very similar to Peter's advice. Since studying with him my soloing has gotten much clearer with more intent, I just have moments where I envy the ability to fly through changes and make good solid lines.
Since posting this I started devoting some practice time to walking through a tune (Rhythm Changes right now) pin pointing "problem areas" and working those bars out. After about 5 choruses of walking I'll try to solo playing ideas, not chops. Even if I just play a bar and a half, it's cool as long as what I play is clear and expresses what I hear in my head. After 1 or maybe 2 choruses I go back to walking for a while. I have to say it's great work.
 
mike da mook said:
Well I've been giging with my fellow students lately, so they bare with me it's cool.
I'm studying with Sean Smith, he is a great player and teacher. To tell the truth, alot of what we deal with in terms of improv is very similar to Peter's advice. Since studying with him my soloing has gotten much clearer with more intent, I just have moments where I envy the ability to fly through changes and make good solid lines.
Since posting this I started devoting some practice time to walking through a tune (Rhythm Changes right now) pin pointing "problem areas" and working those bars out. After about 5 choruses of walking I'll try to solo playing ideas, not chops. Even if I just play a bar and a half, it's cool as long as what I play is clear and expresses what I hear in my head. After 1 or maybe 2 choruses I go back to walking for a while. I have to say it's great work.

Sean is a great player and a great guy, we met sharing the same bill at a Highlights In Jazz concert at PACE. He is (for those who are unfamiliar with him) the bassist in the current version of the Jackie Terrason trio, has two records out under his own name and appears on several other recordings as a sideman, inclusding one with Tristano disciple Connie Crothers.

The approach you are using sounds great, but if I may suggest another exercise to try?

Take the same tune. Start with the metronome at quarter = 60bpm. Play the melody through one chorus, play the chord line for a chorus - what I mean by chord line is arpeggiate the chord EXACTLY {triad=135octave, pay attention to where the change is maj6th (a lot of tonics go there) instead of treating everything as a maj7th} with the idea of keeping your voicings/fingerings proximate ie use all inversions (not just root position) to keep as many common notes as possible. By way of example ii7 V7 Imaj7 in Bb- instead of CEbGBb FACEb BbDFA one could use root 1st inversion root or CEbGBb CEbFA BbDFA. Then after the chord line you can limit your improvisation to specific rhythmic placement ie play 3 8th notes starting on 1 of every bar. Record yourself and listen critically ( the first inclination is to just go up the chord or repeat notes). When you get to the point you are feeling confident and happy with the range of ideas you are playing, move the "rhythmic unit" to the "and" of one of every bar. And so forth.
The final step of this particular exercise is to take your 3 eighth note unit and start it on 1 in the first bar, and of 1 in the second bar, 2 in the third bar, and of 2 in the fourth bar, etc etc. By your second chorus you are phrasing across bar lines and linking phrases.
And then you can start taking the metronome up. Slowly.

Another thing you can do is play the melody in ONLY the first 3 bars of each 8 bar section. And start improving a half note line for the other 5 bars of each 8 bar section. I know it sounds easy, but creating a half note line that sounds melodic and not like a bass line in 2 is very challenging. Again when the exercise reaches a point where you are happy with what you are hearing back on the recordings, take the 3 bars of melody and put it in a diffenrent place in each 8 bar section. So if the first A has the melody start on bar 1, NO OTHER MELODIC UNIT CAN START ON THE FIRST BAR OF AN 8 BAR PHRASE. The bars that do not have melody have the improvised half note solo. THEN, introduce rests. You should play as many quarter notes rest as you do bars of improv.

This all doesn't happen in one practice session or even a month of practice sessions, so take it slow. But believe me, after working on this with a few tunes, you start hearing a lot more in every tune. The added advantage is that you really start hearing notes and lines that move through the harmony in ways that just working on vocabulary does not.

In my experience anyway.
 
The one point I left out in building the chord line is that it should take place in TEMPO. A change that lasts the whole bar will be arpeggiated in quarter notes, two changes per bar each change wil be arpeggiated as 8th notes, one change per beat as 16th notes etc.
 
mike da mook said:
Peter, that excersize sounds great! I'll have to get started on that, this thread is really helpful. I hope others find the things said here helpful too.
It's time to practice, so I must go!
Thanks,
Mike
P.S. Where are you located Peter?


I've found this exercise (and others based on the same principles) to be very, very helpful in developing both walking and solo lines that communicate how I am hearing a tune.

I'm in Queens.
 
You will. Re read my teacher's article, there's no Quick and Easy. The more time and focused effort you put into these exercises, the more you really start to hear what's going on in the tune. The more you start to hear a line form that travels through the changes. And the great thing is that it is YOUR line, you heard it, it formed mentally because of how you personally hear that tune/set of changes.

Did you check with Sean to see if he has another student that could keep working with you while he's on tour?

Oh, and is he out with Jackie, his own thing or something else entirely?

If anybody out there hasn't heard Sean play, I highly recommend checking him out.
 
Ed Fuqua said:
You will. Re read my teacher's article, there's no Quick and Easy. The more time and focused effort you put into these exercises, the more you really start to hear what's going on in the tune. The more you start to hear a line form that travels through the changes. And the great thing is that it is YOUR line, you heard it, it formed mentally because of how you personally hear that tune/set of changes.

Did you check with Sean to see if he has another student that could keep working with you while he's on tour?

Oh, and is he out with Jackie, his own thing or something else entirely?

If anybody out there hasn't heard Sean play, I highly recommend checking him out.

Aw ****, there goes the neighborhood.
 
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua: there's no Quick and Easy.
If I've learned nothing else it's this.
Did you check with Sean to see if he has another student that could keep working with you while he's on tour?
I've actually taken this time while Sean is on tour to work on things that I am learning in my harmony class. Things like surrounding chord tones with approach tones, combining arpeggio/scalar movement, and now the suggested exersizes from here. I've also been working with a fellow student (guitarist) playing turnarounds, ii-V-I's trying to incorparate all of the above concepts. I would've liked to find a student of Sean's to work with, but I really don't have the bread to pay someone else, my lessons with Sean are paid for by my school.
I'm pretty sure it's Jackie, he's always going to Europe with Jackie.
 
There is one thing I have noticed since posting, my walking is much more expressive, reactive, and well musical then soloing. I seem to have this nervous thing when the band gets quiet and it's my turn to say something. I'm not saying I don't need to work on all the things mentioned in this thread, but it seems that no matter what I do it's useless until I get over this nervous thing. It causes my ears to shut down and at times forget changes that I can walk over.
I guess I need therapy or something to deal with this.
 
Well Mike, I have, or rather had, the same problem. I think it is all about relaxation, confidence and forgiveness. Be gentle to yourself (at least when performing: when studying you have to be your own most critical listener). Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery book helped me in getting into that mood during performance. It seems that this book perhaps can help you, too.

Good luck,

Vincent
 
mike da mook said:
I seem to have this nervous thing when the band gets quiet and it's my turn to say something. . . . It it seems that no matter what I do it's useless until I get over this nervous thing. It causes my ears to shut down and at times forget changes that I can walk over.

OK. Thanks for saying. The topic of performance anxiety, pacing and energy management -- all different aspects of the same phenomenon -- is a CRITICAL study at any stage of the game, and it is frequently ignored or even belittled.

There is nothing wrong with you. It's un-nerving when you are a) called upon to follow a player whose instrument is easier to move around on; b) in a register that's easier to hear and louder; c) after you've had a 20-minute, highly-physical workout; d) as the rest of the band makes sure not to give you any support at all; e) and makes sure that every eye in the place turns your way.

The question is not, "How do I keep my blood-pressure down in that situation?" You seek that moment and the energy that comes with it! The question is, "HOW DO I USE THAT ENERGY CONSTRUCTIVELY?"

We had a thread going a while ago, but it got pretty ripped up when Ed took his sabbatical.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79582

Check Hal Galper's site -- www.halgalper.com -- particularly the piece about playing with the Adderly Brothers.

And a practical suggestion: One way to bust that rut is playing 4s or 8s instead of a long solo.

More later?
 
mike da mook said:
There is one thing I have noticed since posting, my walking is much more expressive, reactive, and well musical then soloing. I seem to have this nervous thing when the band gets quiet and it's my turn to say something. I'm not saying I don't need to work on all the things mentioned in this thread, but it seems that no matter what I do it's useless until I get over this nervous thing. It causes my ears to shut down and at times forget changes that I can walk over.
I guess I need therapy or something to deal with this.

IMO you should calm down, you don't have to dive head first into your solo, allow the groove to settle (you don't walk anymore at that point), take time to state (short) melodic or rythmic motives (who said licks???) and elaborate uppon them. I know it's easier to say than to practice, but that's the way I try to approach it, with more or less success depending on the tune.

(man besides mike's post i have not checked the thread, I hope my answer is not too irrelevant or naive, the music theory threads have been on the heavy side recently.
 
Staying calm is the order of the day. It allows you to tap into your ideas but it also allows you to recover when your ideas don't work or what your feeling isn't really all that hot i.e. you don't have anything worthwhile to say. Additionally when you calm you can do things like look at the other members to let them know when your done and/or kick in a turnaround that's going to signal that your done.

Not enough can be said about knowing the form and knowing the tune. It's much easier to be calm when you know what you're doing.
 

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