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Was told not to turn my amp on!

#21
I'm going to go against my usual position and side with the OP on this one. Big, fancy venue or not, this sounds to me like the soundman was just being lazy and didn't care if stuff that makes his job easier will negatively affect the band. It's perfectly reasonable for band members to expect that they can play their own amps on stage if they want to and the sound guy should make sure that the levels of the stage amps are quiet enough for his satisfaction (yet loud enough for the musicians to hear) at the sound check.

I've been running live sound for years and I can't imagine a decent sized venue like that which holds 500 people where the bass amp set on "1" would cause a problem with room sound. That's just ridiculous. :rollno:
 
#22
hbarcat said:
I'm going to go against my usual position and side with the OP on this one. Big, fancy venue or not, this sounds to me like the soundman was just being lazy and didn't care if stuff that makes his job easier will negatively affect the band. It's perfectly reasonable for band members to expect that they can play their own amps on stage if they want to and the sound guy should make sure that the levels of the stage amps are quiet enough for his satisfaction (yet loud enough for the musicians to hear) at the sound check.

I've been running live sound for years and I can't imagine a decent sized venue like that which holds 500 people where the bass amp set on "1" would cause a problem with room sound. That's just ridiculous. :rollno:
Click to expand...

Exactly my points as well.
 
#23
My own 2c. I've run sound and I play bass. It's a big balancing act for a sound guy when people start to ignore you and crank up amps. Most will give a fair amount of room so you can hear yourself. If its a place you play often its easier to work out the diffences. I think you did a great job by knowing your material so well. I did a show where the side fills were blown and thats what saved me. As for how to handle it in the future, Ive always made a point to let soundmen and players to keep in mind the audience may be seeing you for the first time so make sure they hear a good show. How was the feed back for that show?
 
#24
Haven't gotten any feedback really, but the sound guy himself liked us, he said the owner and himself thought it sounded absolutely killer. It's a tough place to get in, and we were there once a year ago before I joined and didn't too very well.

There is a lesson here. Since I was cool with it, and apparently everyone else was easy going, the sound guy said to me how nice it was to just have a band show up and not give him any Bull**** for a change.

He wants us back, and that was our goal. We are in a tough market. We play 80's era rock, not pop synth type rock, but the typical Journey, Jovi stuff. There are so many of us doing it, that someone has to become 2nd tier. So, there are 3 or 4 big cover bands. Big, meaning 300+ people at every show, and BIG bucks, we are talking 3-5K per show. Then there are 2 or 3 like us, 1K-1.5K per show and 100 people on up.

This particular place has two rooms and stages, one for us, one for the big guns. So, anything we can do to get our foot in the door helps.

Moral of the story: Don't be a prick and you will be rewarded.
 
#25
I'm going to have to side with the soundman on this one. It doesn't seem like he was rude about it, and if he had a legitamate reason for you not to turn on your amp, then it is probably in your best interest to listen to him. If I were in your position, I would have gone along with him, albeit with a warning that I would need a LOT of bass in the moniters.

This coming from a 23-year old dude who's only been gigging for three years, and has never played for 500 people at one time.
 
#26
bassman1185 said:
I'm going to have to side with the soundman on this one. It doesn't seem like he was rude about it, and if he had a legitamate reason for you not to turn on your amp, then it is probably in your best interest to listen to him. If I were in your position, I would have gone along with him, albeit with a warning that I would need a LOT of bass in the moniters.

This coming from a 23-year old dude who's only been gigging for three years, and has never played for 500 people at one time.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you normally, but there is a big problem with this "just put it in the monitors" stuff. The monitors are 10 feet in front of me, where I stand back by the drums. The two guitarists and keyboardist, and all 3 vocals are also relying solely on the monitors, as their guitar cabs were facing the back wall. The guy had me in the monitors, but as I'm 10' back most of the time, there is just no way I'm going to get anything useable unless I walk up front all night, which I can't do.

So, I really used just the FOH sound I could hear bouncing back as my monitor. If I walked right up to my amp, I could kind of hear it, actually feel it more than anything, it was on 1, maybe 2 tops.

Next time I am going to have to talk to him about it, because it was certainly made things harder on me, the player, than it should. The drummer of course gets a nice big monitor stuck next to him, facing away from me, I have nothing anywhere close. The keyboard dude has a hartke kickback amp thing aiming at his head, the guitarists have nice monitors pointing at their head, vocalist uses in-ears, and poor ol' bass dork gets an amp on 1.

Boo Hoo. I say all this now, but my next gig is in a strip-mall bar with a stage the size of a bathroom and a 3' high solid wood wall all the way around. I might wear no pants the whole night just to see if anyone notices.
 
#27
synterx said:
the sound guy said to me how nice it was to just have a band show up and not give him any Bull**** for a change.

He wants us back, and that was our goal. We are in a tough market. There are so many of us doing it, that someone has to become 2nd tier.
So, anything we can do to get our foot in the door helps.

Moral of the story: Don't be a prick and you will be rewarded.
Click to expand...

I believe this sums up the situation nicely...I'd be really, really suspicious of a soundguy asking me to listen to FOH for my monitor--it doesn't indicate great bass handling in the room. OTOH, if you're gonna work, you're gonna run into wierd crap. Know your parts, display a good attitude, even if I, er, I mean you ;) feel like ripping someone's nipples off, and continue to get work.

I've got in-ears, the day I get a wireless pack to go with is the last day I worry about what bass cabinet to take to a gig. Yeah, it's unfair, yeah, lots of soundguys suck, yeah, it would probably sound better if every bass cab had a mike. So? It's a very, very imperfect world. Musicians who are easy to get along with will get hired over jerks who play awesome and have boutique gear any day.

I've run sound for groups where the guitarist has voluntarily turned his amp away from an audience, btw. Aside from the fact that he could crank the amp a bit more this way, the speaker on a guitar amp focuses the ambient noise of a club, funneling it right into the guitar mic like a satellite dish funneling waves into the receiver. Take a look at a DishTV receiver, and see if it doesn't bear a resemblence to the speaker-and-mike arrangement we usually see at clubs. Then, ask a soundguy to hear the guitar channel solo'd directly from the board, sometime. You'll be amazed.
 
#28
synterx said:
Boo Hoo. I say all this now, but my next gig is in a strip-mall bar with a stage the size of a bathroom and a 3' high solid wood wall all the way around. I might wear no pants the whole night just to see if anyone notices.
Click to expand...

Nobody but the people paying you will notice, I bet. I don't know about you, but I seem to turn invisible as soon as I strap on the bass. They all seem surprised at the disembodied voice coming through the PA when I talk to them.
 
#29
I would be all for ditching amps. I saw Queensryche a few years ago, got to interview them, video the show, etc., and the bass player had his rack backstage, and that's it. The guitar guys had one cab on one side, turned backwards, and the other guy didn't even have that, but one 1x12 marshall cab up on a stand on the side of the stage so he could run over and get feedback naturally, that's it. It looked kind of dumb up there honestly.

For small bar and club shows though, I'm afraid to have everyone do in-ears. Unless, we invested in one of those Axiom systems where each person controls their own mix right on stage. I do not trust anyone else handling all that.
 
#30
synterx said:
I would be all for ditching amps. I saw Queensryche a few years ago, got to interview them, video the show, etc., and the bass player had his rack backstage, and that's it. The guitar guys had one cab on one side, turned backwards, and the other guy didn't even have that, but one 1x12 marshall cab up on a stand on the side of the stage so he could run over and get feedback naturally, that's it. It looked kind of dumb up there honestly.

For small bar and club shows though, I'm afraid to have everyone do in-ears. Unless, we invested in one of those Axiom systems where each person controls their own mix right on stage. I do not trust anyone else handling all that.
Click to expand...

Just my opinion, based on my experience; If you ever decide to go with in-ears and an Aviom or Hearback system that allows you to control your own monitor mix, you'll never want anything else ever again.
 
#31
I can understand the OP's concerns as I've had similar situations.

Bottom line: when the FOH guy shuts down your amp, doesn't provide you with a stage monitor, and shows no concern whether or not you can hear yourself, he is completely failing at his job. There is more to running sound than just getting a good sound out front. A quality sound engineer gets a good sound out front AND on stage. If the band can't hear themselves the sound engineer has failed.
 
#33
synterx said:
Haven't gotten any feedback really, but the sound guy himself liked us, he said the owner and himself thought it sounded absolutely killer. It's a tough place to get in, and we were there once a year ago before I joined and didn't too very well.

There is a lesson here. Since I was cool with it, and apparently everyone else was easy going, the sound guy said to me how nice it was to just have a band show up and not give him any Bull**** for a change.

He wants us back, and that was our goal. We are in a tough market. We play 80's era rock, not pop synth type rock, but the typical Journey, Jovi stuff. There are so many of us doing it, that someone has to become 2nd tier. So, there are 3 or 4 big cover bands. Big, meaning 300+ people at every show, and BIG bucks, we are talking 3-5K per show. Then there are 2 or 3 like us, 1K-1.5K per show and 100 people on up.

This particular place has two rooms and stages, one for us, one for the big guns. So, anything we can do to get our foot in the door helps.

Moral of the story: Don't be a prick and you will be rewarded.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you did the right thing. The next time you play, talk over your experience from this show with the sound guy. Let him know you had trouble hearing yourself and see if you can work out a solution. You should be able to come up with *something*, whether it's decoupling your bass amp from the stage (use a drum carpet folded over once or twice), a cross-fire setup of your amp, more bass in the monitors, or whatever. If you show the sound guy you respect him trying to do his job, you should be able to work out something so you can do your job better too without screwing up the FOH sound.

By the way, it's really refreshing to read about somebody being mature, trusting the house sound guy, and understanding when to make a compromise. Well done.
 
#34
I don't understand why so many of "us" have such trouble using monitors. I would have to assume a big, fancy venue has at least 4 monitor mixes available. Surely you could get enough bass in one of those to successfully get through the gig? I am always able to do so, but I am not as dependent on my amp for "my sound" as many others seem to be. My bass sounds good right from a DI.
 
#36
Question: Do you really think that the sound guys response was one of being unprofessional or worse, or do you think it was a direct result of your being late?

Or asked another way, do you think the circumstances would have been different had you gotten there earlier with more set-up time?

Which begs the question.. in the OP you said you were late, very late, got lost on the way etc. Later you said the problem was more the start time being moved up. So the question, when was the "call time"? When were you supposed to be there, set-up and ready for sound-check?
 
#37
TL5 said:
Question: Do you really think that the sound guys response was one of being unprofessional or worse, or do you think it was a direct result of your being late?

Or asked another way, do you think the circumstances would have been different had you gotten there earlier with more set-up time?

Which begs the question.. in the OP you said you were late, very late, got lost on the way etc. Later you said the problem was more the start time being moved up. So the question, when was the "call time"? When were you supposed to be there, set-up and ready for sound-check?
Click to expand...
+ 1 to this post. Is it possible that the reason you didn't have a monitor was because you were late. If nobody in the band mentioned it he may have thought they were a four piece and he had everyone covered. Sounds like you guys kept your cool and didn't piss off the venue. I would bet next time the soundman and you can work it out so both you are happy.
 
#38
modulusman said:
+ 1 to this post. Is it possible that the reason you didn't have a monitor was because you were late. If nobody in the band mentioned it he may have thought they were a four piece and he had everyone covered. Sounds like you guys kept your cool and didn't piss off the venue. I would bet next time the soundman and you can work it out so both you are happy.
Click to expand...

If it was just me who was told to not turn the amp on, maybe. But both guitarists were told the same thing, and they were there hours before me.

I was late, but there was still time to do things normally. Like I said, the contract I was given said start time of 10:45, and I got there about 10:10. I had the brief discussion with the sound guy, I plugged in, took about 5 minutes total to be up and running. I played 30 seconds for him to get my level, and that's it. It was about 20 after 10:00. I was heading up the stairs to the dressing room to sit down and relax for what I thought was 20 minutes or so, and then I'm told we go on in 10.

Like I said earlier, the dude expressed to me how he liked a competitor because they went all in-ears and have no amps. As a live-sound engineer, who wouldn't like no amps? Problem is, most bands use amps, and depend on them.

I am really looking forward to playing there again and am not going to bring my amp, just my shuttle or GK mini-amp and a wireless.
 
#39
Sounds like you encountered a jaded soundperson being lazy to me.
I can assure you, if a touring band goes in there (which is likely based on location, and size) there WILL be a bass amp on that stage, it will be turned on, and will be at the normal level for said bass player. There will also be a 99 percent chance that bass amp will have a DI and a mic on it. This guys statement to you, (now infamous due to the internet) has made him look foolish, lazy, and incompitent. My 2 cents.
 
#40
Lots of great words!!

Dude, I think you passed a test. You show up late-ish, he tells you to leave your amp off, gives you insufficient monitor to hear yourself, yet he now likes your band.

There's still the technical issue. My guess is that stage booms like mad, & he's have to work around that problem far too often.

Instead of showing up early next time, I invite you to contact him soon & ask him how to solve the problems of 'too-loud amp versus low stage level' at that venue. It could be an informative discussion, & I think he'd be happy to share knowledge with you as well as feeling a bit honoured.

That'd also be a great time to inquire into how best to get booked there again soon ;)
 

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