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Double Bass Wayne Shorter's Quartet in my home town tonight!!

#21
I listen to a wide range of music and the one thing I try to get in touch with when I listen to a piece of music is, how do I feel about it. That feeling can be generated by a number of things, harmony, rhythm, intensity, other stuff that I can't find a word for, or all of these things or any combination of them. I've been to live shows where the musicians are very good at playing their instruments, but the result winds up lacking in some way. I guess I don't really agree with the "hearing" notion, if it means understanding, but if "hearing" is mean "feeling", then I am in agreement.
 
#22
ED POURQUOIS -- absolutely. When it comes to music / art appreciation, I like the conversation analogy. You know, that kind of communication is a 2-way street, the shared set of signs and symbols, the messages being transmitted and interpreted. So, if you encounter the Farsi thing and you're pretty a slick communicator, you'll be hip to the notion of cultural difference and how to conduct yourself in cross cultural circumstances. Maybe you don't have Farsi experience but you've got, say, swahili or malayalam or something. You've got a frame of reference for no reference, if that makes any sense.

I like to think I have a very open mind on these matters, more open every day. But I'm not a relativist, not totally anyway. I don't say "anything under the sun, and if I don't dig it I must be defecient somehow." These days I will consciously and, with my head held high, say "I don't like that" if if figure that to be the case.

Now you guys have got me wondering about what Shorter's up to. I'm gonna check it out.
 
#24
I'm with Ed & Peter. It's inspiring that Wayne, who qualifies for Social Security, is out taking chances and trying to develop something new.

I got the Wayne Live record at the same time as the Herbie/Mike/Roy record. Being a Brecker fiend, the HMR disc reached me immediately. It's taken me a while to reach the point where I listen the Wayne disc and say, "Yeah, that's exciting."
 
#25
It sounds like Herbie and Wayne are doing very similar things--and getting similar reactions. The very hard-bop-oriented baritonist in my funk band said that hearing what Herbie did to "Dolphin Dance" (stretching it out into a Jarrett-esque 45-minute suite) was akin to "seeing your parents having sex."

I happened to love it. I'm sure that most of the 1500 people who came to hear old chestnuts like "Chameleon" and "Watermelon Man" were disappointed. Screw 'em.
 
#26
...hmmm. I'd hate to see this thread take a turn along the lines of "old tunes = safe, comfy, boring", "new stuff = daring, exciting, fresh".

There's some truth to it, or else it wouldn't be a cliche. But it's too simple.

I gave a back-handed dis to Herbie way back in this thread. Hey, I've been listening to Herbie for nigh on 30 years. Listening to Herbie (or ____, fill in the blank) is a process, not an event.

What I didn't dig about HH at the Hancock / Shorter duet concert I saw was a lot of cliche "out" stuff. Like getting in there and yanking and plinking at the strings, a la prepared piano. Been there, done that. Why now, Herbie? Why here? The 20th century gave us a healthy respect for what we used to call "dissonance". OK, got it. Rule-breaking and boundary-pushing? We've done a lot of that. Next?

I'm simplifying, but I'm just trying to express the feeling I've got about it. If you immediately recognize it as a presentation of "something new", and the elements have more or less been around for DECADES, and there's no new vibe or feel to whole context, then how new is it?

To go back to the conversation analogy, there needs to be some germ of shared meaning in there, hopefully not buried too deep. For me, my liking usually correlates to there being some genetic trace of swing and/or blues (both terms used in the widest, most generic/generous terms possible) discernable in the sounds. Just my tendency, my personality.

Maybe I'm just getting old and curmudgeonly, or maybe I've just got a bellyful of the 20th century, but I do look for "gratuitous new-ness" when I'm frisking down new music.
 
#27
What I had a problem with at the Wayne/Herbie concert was not a problem with dissonance - I saw them at the North Sea Jazz and I heard plenty of "free" stuff that made a much more immediate emotional connection - eg Archie Shepp was there and though he played a variety of stuff including some pretty pedestrian (to my ears) r'n'b he also played some great solos reminiscent of his 60's heyday. I like guys like Albert Ayler and Cecil Taylor and Peter Brotzmann that are much more obviously "out" than Wayne's band. It was the degree of control, the attempt to avoid anything that sounded like anything that might sound even slightly familiar or offer the audience an easy connection or way in. The London Times jazz critic said of the band at the time "never playing a cliche itself becomes a cliche". The more I think about that phrase the clumsier it sounds, but I also think my own response to the band was similar.

Not that I'm going to dismiss a band with musicians of that calibre after one listen, and I'll try to hear the new album, but my initial impression was of cold, cerebral music that had none of the passion of guys like Ornette Coleman or Evan Parker.
 
#28
Originally posted by bassbloke
What I had a problem with at the Wayne/Herbie concert was not a problem with dissonance - I saw them at the North Sea Jazz and I heard plenty of "free" stuff that made a much more immediate emotional connection - eg Archie Shepp was there and though he played a variety of stuff including some pretty pedestrian (to my ears) r'n'b he also played some great solos reminiscent of his 60's heyday. I like guys like Albert Ayler and Cecil Taylor and Peter Brotzmann that are much more obviously "out" than Wayne's band. It was the degree of control, the attempt to avoid anything that sounded like anything that might sound even slightly familiar or offer the audience an easy connection or way in. The London Times jazz critic said of the band at the time "never playing a cliche itself becomes a cliche". The more I think about that phrase the clumsier it sounds, but I also think my own response to the band was similar.
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Exactly. To the ears of this dumb hillbilly, it sounded as if Wayne was thinking, "Whoops! Whoa there, that almost sounded like a MELODY. Better stop doing that right away, or somebody might actually be able to UNDERSTAND what I'm playing, which wouldn't be hip AT ALL."

Now, I do understand that Wayne's a genius who has contributed more to jazz than I ever have even the hope of doing, and I certainly don't claim to be able to read his mind....But the above is the impression I got while at the concert.
 
#30
Originally posted by Samuel
I'm with Ed & Peter. It's inspiring that Wayne, who qualifies for Social Security, is out taking chances and trying to develop something new.

I got the Wayne Live record at the same time as the Herbie/Mike/Roy record. Being a Brecker fiend, the HMR disc reached me immediately. It's taken me a while to reach the point where I listen the Wayne disc and say, "Yeah, that's exciting."
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That's my feeling - I felt really privileged to see a great musician like Wayne clearly playing the music he wanted to play with the people he wanted to play with. I got a lot out of the concert and enjoyed it, but as I mentioned earlier I don't see it as "new" or "out there" - Miles' quintet was doing stuff like this in the 1960's!!

Also as Samuel mentions - the live "Footprints" album has been out for over year now - it was UK JazzWise magazine's album of the year for last year and was in the Jazz charts here for many weeks/months - so everybody who is a Jazz fan in the UK should know what to expect - more like this.

I was just surprised that there were many people who went to the Brighton concert last week and expected anything different - what are they listening to, what are they reading? If you are taking any kind of interest in what is going on in Jazz today, you will know exactly what Wayne is up to now.

I thought they made some great music and appreciate the fact that each concert is different and develops on the night from group imrovisation - I heard some wonderful playing from Patitucci and his quiet high passages and melodic bowing will stay in my mind for a long time.
 
#31
Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
Now DURRL, that's about the way I felt the first time I heard SEVEN STEPS TO HEAVEN. I couldn't understand how it didn't have to be in F all the way through. But I got to where I could hear more and then that became clear.

I ain't trying to devalue your feelings, but they are your feelings, dig? They may what you would feel if you were in the situation playing that music, but that ain't where Wayne's coming from with it.
Hey you don't dig it you don't dig it. I don't care for opera much. But it don't mean that opera doesn't have something real and genuine and true and heartfelt going on.

It just means I don't hear it.
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Absolutely, and I'll be happy to post as many disclaimers as needed to support this point. I'm in no position to judge Wayne - or anyone else, for that matter - on any basis other than my own taste. I was almost ready to argue the "I just don't hear it" part in favor of "I don't dig it", but then I suppose it's possible that if I "heard" it, I might then "dig it". Whatever. So far, I can honestly say that I just don't dig what I've heard, but that's just me.
 

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