Rene said:
That's really faulty logic. It's string height no matter what convoluted rationale you use.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Weird looking bridge after setup
- Thread starter PionFou
- Start date
That's really faulty logic. It's string height no matter what convoluted rationale you use.
Jazz Ad said:
A double bass has a perfectly straight bridge just like the rest of the classical string family. The vibrating length of all four (or five) strings is exactly the same.
With a 41+" inch string length and a fretless fingerboard, intonation is not really a issue that a compensated bridge can address.
Rene said:
Your question doesn't make sense.
If you set the strings flat on a radiused f.b., of course the strings will be higher on the G and D.
A setup HAS to be done in a reasonably logic order. To set the intonation on a radiused f.b. with the strings dead flat at the bridge is an exercize in futility. The string heigth must be set properly first. With the string heigth properly adjusted the string heigth will follow the profile of the f.b. Any other order of adjustments will demand that the intonation be readjusted once you set the string heigth properly.
You don't appear to have a firm grasp of the basics of setup.
I don't mean for this to offend you but you need to understand the geometry of a setup before you can understand what I'm saying.
The radius of a f.b. has absolutely nothing to do with the intonation unless unless the initial string heigth is grossly misadjusted. I.E., strings flat at the bridge with a radiused f.b.
Anytime a string is so high that it requires an undue amount of stretching when fretted. the intonation will suffer. It still has nothing to do with radius.
Accept it or not, I do know what I'm talking about.
pkr2 said:Your question doesn't make sense.
If you set the strings flat on a radiused f.b., of course the strings will be higher on the G and D.
A setup HAS to be done in a reasonably logic order. To set the intonation on a radiused f.b. with the strings dead flat at the bridge is an exercize in futility. The string heigth must be set properly first. With the string heigth properly adjusted the string heigth will follow the profile of the f.b. Any other order of adjustments will demand that the intonation be readjusted once you set the string heigth properly.
You don't appear to have a firm grasp of the basics of setup.
I don't mean for this to offend you but you need to understand the geometry of a setup before you can understand what I'm saying.
The radius of a f.b. has absolutely nothing to do with the intonation unless unless the initial string heigth is grossly misadjusted. I.E., strings flat at the bridge with a radiused f.b.
Anytime a string is so high that it requires an undue amount of stretching when fretted. the intonation will suffer. It still has nothing to do with radius.
Accept it or not, I do know what I'm talking about.
Be careful. You're making sense.
To put it simply, the radius will have no effect as long as the bridge saddles are properly set and nut slots cut to proper depth, thereby assuring uniform string to fret distancing.Rene said:
pkr2 said:Your question doesn't make sense.
If you set the strings flat on a radiused f.b., of course the strings will be higher on the G and D.
A setup HAS to be done in a reasonably logic order. To set the intonation on a radiused f.b. with the strings dead flat at the bridge is an exercize in futility. The string heigth must be set properly first. With the string heigth properly adjusted the string heigth will follow the profile of the f.b. Any other order of adjustments will demand that the intonation be readjusted once you set the string heigth properly.
You don't appear to have a firm grasp of the basics of setup.
I don't mean for this to offend you but you need to understand the geometry of a setup before you can understand what I'm saying.
The radius of a f.b. has absolutely nothing to do with the intonation unless unless the initial string heigth is grossly misadjusted. I.E., strings flat at the bridge with a radiused f.b.
Anytime a string is so high that it requires an undue amount of stretching when fretted. the intonation will suffer. It still has nothing to do with radius.
Accept it or not, I do know what I'm talking about.
What do you use to guide yourself to set the height of the string? Is it the surface of the fingerboard that the fret sit on or the back of the neck?
So you are telling me that a flat fingerboard will have the same intonation as a radiused fingerboard and the pattern of the position of the saddle on the bridge will be exactly the same?
I have been handcrafting classical acoustic electric guitars and 4,5,6 string basses since 1985 and i have been studying
the principle of making stringed instrument ever since from many well known makers and do still have the collection of their books here.
Enough arguing we don't have the same way of seeing things
Keep arguing with yourself like you said
"I do know what I'm talking about"
From Rene's Public Profile:
Current Setup:
I am a luthier so I use my own
Previously owned gear:
I repair too many kind of instrument so I can offer
knowlegable advice on almost anything.
Current Setup:
I am a luthier so I use my own
Previously owned gear:
I repair too many kind of instrument so I can offer
knowlegable advice on almost anything.
Back to the original question: I have seen saddles move all sorts of different ways with diferent brands and gagues of strings. If the intonation is reasonably on down the length of the neck, then there is no problem.
Rene said:
"What do you use to guide yourself to set the height of the string?"
Assuming that I am aiming for the lowest possible action that I can get, I set the string heigth for the lowest string heigth that I can and not have fret buzz. I do this AFTER I set the relief for the least amount of buzz on the first few frets from the nut. At that point I adjust the saddle heigth as low as I can get them without introducing buzz in the highest notes on the neck. At this point I adjust the intonation. Adjusting the intonation at this point doesn't affect the string heigth.
"Is it the surface of the fingerboard that the fret sit on or the back of the neck? "
Please explain how one sets the string heigth using the back of the neck.
So you are telling me that a flat fingerboard will have the same intonation as a radiused fingerboard and the pattern of the position of the saddle on the bridge will be exactly the same?
It will have exactly the same intonation.
Nowhere did I even mention saddle positions in relation to intonation. It doesn't really matter what thier positions are as long as the intonation is correct. The original poster does, however, have an odd looking pattern for an instrument that is intonated properly.
Enough arguing we don't have the same way of seeing things
Keep arguing with yourself like you said
"I do know what I'm talking about"[/QUOTE
I'm not arguing. I'm simply stating the facts. Setup is not something that you can just make a judgement call and even hope to get it right.
Yes, we don't see things the same way. Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I am nearly seventy years old and have been doing setup both professionally and, of course, on my own instruments for an awfully lot of years. In fact I started doing setup work when the first electric basses came out and did quite a bit of setup work on double basses and cellos before the electric bass was even a gleam in Leos' mind.
If you are a luthier, I am very surprised at some of the statements that you've made in this thread.
Anyway, no hard feelings on my part. We'll just agree to disagree.
pkr2 said:"What do you use to guide yourself to set the height of the string?"
Assuming that I am aiming for the lowest possible action that I can get, I set the string heigth for the lowest string heigth that I can and not have fret buzz. I do this AFTER I set the relief for the least amount of buzz on the first few frets from the nut. At that point I adjust the saddle heigth as low as I can get them without introducing buzz in the highest notes on the neck. At this point I adjust the intonation. Adjusting the intonation at this point doesn't affect the string heigth.
"Is it the surface of the fingerboard that the fret sit on or the back of the neck? "
Please explain how one sets the string heigth using the back of the neck.
So you are telling me that a flat fingerboard will have the same intonation as a radiused fingerboard and the pattern of the position of the saddle on the bridge will be exactly the same?
It will have exactly the same intonation.
Nowhere did I even mention saddle positions in relation to intonation. It doesn't really matter what thier positions are as long as the intonation is correct. The original poster does, however, have an odd looking pattern for an instrument that is intonated properly.
Enough arguing we don't have the same way of seeing things
Keep arguing with yourself like you said
"I do know what I'm talking about"[/QUOTE
I'm not arguing. I'm simply stating the facts. Setup is not something that you can just make a judgement call and even hope to get it right.
Yes, we don't see things the same way. Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I am nearly seventy years old and have been doing setup both professionally and, of course, on my own instruments for an awfully lot of years. In fact I started doing setup work when the first electric basses came out and did quite a bit of setup work on double basses and cellos before the electric bass was even a gleam in Leos' mind.
If you are a luthier, I am very surprised at some of the statements that you've made in this thread.
Anyway, no hard feelings on my part. We'll just agree to disagree.
Look, if you're going to quote hard facts, you have no place in this discussion.
Um, the Takamine TB10 has a floating bridge without adjustable saddles. The intonation is an approximation at best. Trust me, I know. Besides, it's fretless, so intonation is really up to you.
VintageBT6Lover said:
aside from the type and gauge of string and fb radius and floating bridge and nut slot and humidity and relief and strig height and ... this might be an issue
fwiw, seems to me that if it feels good and sounds good to you then you probably have a good setup.
Ok to throw my thoughts into this...
For a string to have proper intonation, the length of the string when fretted at the 12th fret should be almost exactly half the length of the string when open. Thats not taking into account changes in tension when fretting.
Anyways, for string to vary that much in saddle location....theres only a few things that could cause that. The first thing I'd think of is varying tensions between strings. When you fret a string, it raises the tension on that string. I'm pretty sure this change in tension would effect the pitch of tighter strings more than slack strings, so if the tension varied a lot between your 4 strings, it could cause saddles to be strange like that.
I was thinking about if different windings on different strings would cause this but the way I see it, different kinds of windings and number of windings only effects the tension (see above). My understanding is this is why saddle positions change on a guitar between the wound and unwound strings.
Another thought....the angle of the string going over the saddle. I don't have any theories about how it could do it, but looks like the strings make about an 80 degree bend going over the saddle in those pics...could do strange things to intonation but I honestly don't know.
And last theory...the strings could be bad. Its probably unlikely but if the mass of the string varied throughout its length (ie some parts were thicker than others, or there were weak spots, maybe if the windings were loose), it throws off all theories of intonating a guitar.
For a string to have proper intonation, the length of the string when fretted at the 12th fret should be almost exactly half the length of the string when open. Thats not taking into account changes in tension when fretting.
Anyways, for string to vary that much in saddle location....theres only a few things that could cause that. The first thing I'd think of is varying tensions between strings. When you fret a string, it raises the tension on that string. I'm pretty sure this change in tension would effect the pitch of tighter strings more than slack strings, so if the tension varied a lot between your 4 strings, it could cause saddles to be strange like that.
I was thinking about if different windings on different strings would cause this but the way I see it, different kinds of windings and number of windings only effects the tension (see above). My understanding is this is why saddle positions change on a guitar between the wound and unwound strings.
Another thought....the angle of the string going over the saddle. I don't have any theories about how it could do it, but looks like the strings make about an 80 degree bend going over the saddle in those pics...could do strange things to intonation but I honestly don't know.
And last theory...the strings could be bad. Its probably unlikely but if the mass of the string varied throughout its length (ie some parts were thicker than others, or there were weak spots, maybe if the windings were loose), it throws off all theories of intonating a guitar.
