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We've lost the old school sound.

#181
dalahorse said:
If you can't get an old school tone out of a Heritage SVT
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Then you're not turning it up loud enough. It's that simple. That old school grind and thump isn't just from overdriving the front end, although that's surely part of it. You also have to saturate those power tubes and drive them into distortion. That IMO is really where that old school tone comes from. If you can't crank the SVT that loud because it's too loud at 300 watts then get a 100 watt tube head and crank it up.

Today we as players are so used to high wattage SS or class D heads that the thought of using only 100 watts for bass seems ludicrous. We forget exactly how loud a 100 watt tube head can be. You can crank it up and get those power tubes saturating and the tone is pure old school at a level that sits great in a mix and doesn't blow down a wall. Put the head atop a 2-15 cab and get ready for 60's and 70's old school bliss. I love the modern stuff too. My tc electronics gear is powerful, lightweight, and sounds great. Is it old school? No way. I've got a 74 Silverface Dual Showman head that oozes lush old school vibe and it's plenty loud for any gig I might play. If not that's what PA's are for. Mic it and be happy :bassist:
 
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#182
I was there in the late '60s/early 70s. The tone you hear on vintage recordings is the best achievable with the gear of the era. Although I have vintage gear, I prefer using modern equipment due to its vastly superior versatility relative to vintage gear; in short, modern equipment is fully capable of capturing vintage tones, but much of the vintage equipment that has survived would be hard-pressed to capture many modern tones.
 
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#183
wolfkeller said:
Not sure how to even tittle this. So I'm driving, whole lotta love comes on the radio. Ofcourse we all know and love JPJ's tone on it. Some old Marshall or hiwatt or orange or something but killer right. Then there's Glover's tone on good ol smoke on the water. Just to name 2 old songs with killer tones we just don't hear in new music.

So I ask myself, many times, what did so and so use? I look it up only to realize, it ain't happening. Who has the $ for one of those amps,If you can even find one.

Now, 2017 and we cannot get those old tones from today's gear. Maybe there is stuff I'm not aware of, but I've yet to come across gear that will faithfully reproduction those, and other vintage (and cool) tones. Even an SVT, they just can't get it after all these years. I like VT and other pedals, preamps but they don't cut it. Seems like by now this could be done.

I'd love to be able to cop those kinds of tones without getting the real deal.
Click to expand...

Of course that old sound was a flaw, exploited. Someday, if enough people still want to sound like that, technology will provide. In the mean time, I get it with an Ampeg B25B rig. I purchased the rig, completely serviced the amp (caps, tubes) and put Altec 421A's in the 2x15 for $1000.
 
#184
I'm not going to argue that the old bass tones sounded better, that's subjective based on what your tonal goals are. For me I prefer the saturation and power amp overdrive along with speakers being pushed harder that was often a result of inadequate equipment. And can that sound still be achieved now? Short answer yes, because you can get all that gear still, or often times recreations. Look at the guitar side. You have many high quality spot on replicas of old amps (thinking of Marshalls here, Germino, Metro, Rockitt, etc). As far as getting that sound through emualtors and OD pedals and what not...I honestly can't wrap my head around that. We have known quantities that will provide you exactly what you're looking for, but instead people spend all this time and money to put these "tonez" in a stomp box. I get it, people want portability and not want to lug all this gear. But the way I look at it is that's taking the easy way out, and you're not going to achieve these things with that mind set. You're going to have to work for it, packing that gear, maintaining it, etc. No shortcuts will really get you there. "Hey, if I throw this pedal in front of my xyz with my xyz cab, it'll sound just like so and so." Except unless you're using a cab with a totally flat response, and just a power amp with no colouration, it won't. If you're using a Kubicki into some Genz-Benz into a ampeg 4x10, no pedal you put infront of it will make it sound like a Jazz Bass run into a wall of cranked Marshalls and 4x12s. I'd also say I'm mostly speaking in regards to live sound here, because as many have pointed out, there is such a rabbit hole of variables when it comes to studio recordings. Now for recording purposes, sure, if you run your bass DI into the board, and then use the best emulators for the micing, cab, amp, board, whatever, that may work.
And as far as maybe not achieving those tones you're after with a SVT, well, I'm a bit biased, but I'd say that's likely because it's not really the amp that was held as a standard for pre-1970 recordings. If you're after the sound of British bands from that period, you should be looking at Hiwatts and Marshalls, which I think and SVT and 8x10s are quite a far cry from. A lot of people will say that SVTs are the sound of classic rock, but given they weren't out until '69, they aren't the sound of earlier classic rock (nor many of the big bands in the early 70s). Or, if you are using an SVT, not cranking the preamp gain, but making sure that power section is reaching distortion (maybe a bit of a volume issue with an SVT). If you're looking for power amp drive, I recommend lower wattage amps and efficient speakers, which is the route I go.
 
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#185
D.M.N. said:
I'm not going to argue that the old bass tones sounded better, that's subjective based on what your tonal goals are. For me I prefer the saturation and power amp overdrive along with speakers being pushed harder that was often a result of inadequate equipment. And can that sound still be achieved now? Short answer yes, because you can get all that gear still, or often times recreations. Look at the guitar side. You have many high quality spot on replicas of old amps (thinking of Marshalls here, Germino, Metro, Rockitt, etc). As far as getting that sound through emualtors and OD pedals and what not...I honestly can't wrap my head around that. We have known quantities that will provide you exactly what you're looking for, but instead people spend all this time and money to put these "tonez" in a stomp box. I get it, people want portability and not want to lug all this gear. But the way I look at it is that's taking the easy way out, and you're not going to achieve these things with that mind set. You're going to have to work for it, packing that gear, maintaining it, etc. No shortcuts will really get you there. "Hey, if I throw this pedal in front of my xyz with my xyz cab, it'll sound just like so and so." Except unless you're using a cab with a totally flat response, and just a power amp with no colouration, it won't. If you're using a Kubicki into some Genz-Benz into a ampeg 4x10, no pedal you put infront of it will make it sound like a Jazz Bass run into a wall of cranked Marshalls and 4x12s. I'd also say I'm mostly speaking in regards to live sound here, because as many have pointed out, there is such a rabbit hole of variables when it comes to studio recordings. Now for recording purposes, sure, if you run your bass DI into the board, and then use the best emulators for the micing, cab, amp, board, whatever, that may work.
And as far as maybe not achieving those tones you're after with a SVT, well, I'm a bit biased, but I'd say that's likely because it's not really the amp that was held as a standard for pre-1970 recordings. If you're after the sound of British bands from that period, you should be looking at Hiwatts and Marshalls, which I think and SVT and 8x10s are quite a far cry from. A lot of people will say that SVTs are the sound of classic rock, but given they weren't out until '69, they aren't the sound of earlier classic rock (nor many of the big bands in the early 70s). Or, if you are using an SVT, not cranking the preamp gain, but making sure that power section is reaching distortion (maybe a bit of a volume issue with an SVT). If you're looking for power amp drive, I recommend lower wattage amps and efficient speakers, which is the route I go.
Click to expand...
But, the SVT quickly turned into a big live bass rig for so many big touring bands....along with the Acoustic rigs.

For me the biggest change in bass tone occurred when the Musicman Stingray came into play in the mid 70's...I saw so many bands with Stingrays in the late 70's and early 80's.

But then, the 80's started the 'modern bass tone'...Ibanez and all of the others thru GK rigs, imo.
 
#186
wolfkeller said:
Not sure how to even tittle this. So I'm driving, whole lotta love comes on the radio. Ofcourse we all know and love JPJ's tone on it. Some old Marshall or hiwatt or orange or something but killer right. Then there's Glover's tone on good ol smoke on the water. Just to name 2 old songs with killer tones we just don't hear in new music.

So I ask myself, many times, what did so and so use? I look it up only to realize, it ain't happening. Who has the $ for one of those amps,If you can even find one.

Now, 2017 and we cannot get those old tones from today's gear. Maybe there is stuff I'm not aware of, but I've yet to come across gear that will faithfully reproduction those, and other vintage (and cool) tones. Even an SVT, they just can't get it after all these years. I like VT and other pedals, preamps but they don't cut it. Seems like by now this could be done.

I'd love to be able to cop those kinds of tones without getting the real deal.
Click to expand...
That old school tone thing is not just in the type of amp we use!
Style/Technique/ Bass/ set up passive VS active etc. has a lot to do with it!
Regardless I do agree.. ,
Just not the same!
 
#187
For some people, 'Old School Sound' = Old Fashioned.

Most of the greatest creative people aim to be contemporary, to be in the moment, a reflection of the day. Not a re-hash of the last generations style.

Could you imagine Jon Lord trying to play his Hammond to sound just like a cathedral organ in Bach's day? No way. He sent it through an overdriven Marshall, just like every guitarist of the day was doing.
 
#189
I think people are maybe forgetting also strings and pickups were not the same as today.
Strings are brighter and better quality all round.
Pickups are voiced slightly different in general, of course you can buy replicas wound and constructed exactly as the originals.
Then add in everything that's already been said amps, cabs, recording equipment.
Even the instrument lead quality is different. Some if those old coiled leads effected tone.
We are missing all the lo fi elements that made up such a great time when dialled in right.

But I know you could still get a similar vintage tone from many modern amps today. Its just they are not that popular or in vogue.
There are many vintage sounding class a/b amps around that are still in production or were until of late.
But most want these more modern sounding amps and the class d amps that, I don't think class d tech is there just yet for replicating low fi, for lack of a better word. Fine if you want modern and clean tone though.
 
#190
brianrost said:
Drivers in the 1960s were low wattage...why do you suppose an SVT cabinet had 8 of them to handle 300 watts? 25 to 50 watts power handling per driver with a few "high end" speakers like JBLs and Altecs rated for around 100 watts. When ceramic magnets replaced alnico, we started seeing drivers like the EV SROs that could take 200 watts. By 1980 drivers handling 400 watts were commonplace.

Go to Eminence's website and you will find they make no bass drivers today that handle less than 100 watts and for a 15" nothing that handles less than 300 watts. It's actually hard to find low wattage bass drivers.

The high frequencies were reduced in a lot of older speakers. That's why bright switches are found in many old amps....guitar players couldn't get enough treble! Many bass drivers rolled off at 3-4 Khz. If you look at the (already 1980s era) EVM-15B and EVM-15L, the L model has an extra octave of response...up in the 6-7Khz range. You can easily hear the L is much brighter sounding than the B (I prefer the B myself).
Click to expand...

The big companies still do make lower wattage drivers that resemble more the older tech in some specs. Its just they only sell to big companies to put in mass produced combos etc.

I have on occasion found that these lower end drivers that are normally in too little a cab can sound very vintage sounding and very pleasent. But they are not efficient and we are now used to hearing better stuff so often they are branded as being rubbish. Which they are on paper and in what sounds they can cover compared to higher end drivers in correctly sized cabs with properly tuned ports etc.

I have a more modern 4x10 but I currently also have an old ashdown combo with the head removed that I sometimes use on its own as it does gave a more vintage vibe, which is down to the sica driver not being that great and cab being too small and so on.
That's not to say modern cabs can't sound vintage as many do. Just most are not voiced that way. In a way they are too good to get that lo fi thing really going on they can also really take a lot of power and still stay clean which maybe takes away something.
 
#192
petrus61 said:
Listen to some recordings under the Daptone record label. They manage to track some incredibly vintage sounding recordings, so it's not like it's a lost art or anything. For more mainstream examples, Mark Ronsons studio credits with Amy Winehouse should be enough to convince at least a few that it's still doable.
Click to expand...

The amy winehhouse tracks are the daptones. Watch how they record- horn players on one mic, blending by listening, and if one needs to be louder move closer, softer further away. less mics on drums so it sounds like one instrument, rather than a collection of separate instruments. Arrangements that leave space. I guarantee they can get that sound using a DAW too, the approach makes a huge difference.

Then there is this:
Basses have evolved because sound has evolved. In case you haven't noticed, pop doesn't sound like it used to, Motown is dead, Funk\R&B have been pushed way off to the margins, and despite some minor changes, jazz is oblivious to what decade it is. The world of John Paul Jones and Roger Glover ended 40-50 years ago. Why would basses and amps sound the same? Frankly, those muddy sort of tones are a first class way to get completely lost in modern arrangements and recordings.
Click to expand...

Or one might argue about the LACK of arrangement in modern recordings. No need to worry about the bass getting lost when the arrangement leaves space for it. Triple track 2 guitar players chugging away in the same range with massive drums? Then you'll need to "cut through." Adele's 21 album has some pretty cool arrangements on it and sounds "old school" to be even though there's plenty of use of protools, drum samples, etc.

Just some thoughts.
 
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#195
mrufino1 said:
The amy winehhouse tracks are the daptones. Watch how they record- horn players on one mic, blending by listening, and if one needs to be louder move closer, softer further away. less mics on drums so it sounds like one instrument, rather than a collection of separate instruments. Arrangements that leave space. I guarantee they can get that sound using a DAW too, the approach makes a huge difference.



Or one might argue about the LACK of arrangement in modern recordings. No need to worry about the bass getting lost when the arrangement leaves space for it. Triple track 2 guitar players chugging away in the same range with massive drums? Then you'll need to "cut through." Adele's 21 album has some pretty cool arrangements on it and sounds "old school" to be even though there's plenty of use of protools, drum samples, etc.

Just some thoughts.
Click to expand...

We have a winner...
 
#196
D.M.N. said:
I'm not going to argue that the old bass tones sounded better, that's subjective based on what your tonal goals are. For me I prefer the saturation and power amp overdrive along with speakers being pushed harder that was often a result of inadequate equipment. And can that sound still be achieved now? Short answer yes, because you can get all that gear still, or often times recreations. Look at the guitar side. You have many high quality spot on replicas of old amps (thinking of Marshalls here, Germino, Metro, Rockitt, etc). As far as getting that sound through emualtors and OD pedals and what not...I honestly can't wrap my head around that. We have known quantities that will provide you exactly what you're looking for, but instead people spend all this time and money to put these "tonez" in a stomp box. I get it, people want portability and not want to lug all this gear. But the way I look at it is that's taking the easy way out, and you're not going to achieve these things with that mind set. You're going to have to work for it, packing that gear, maintaining it, etc. No shortcuts will really get you there. "Hey, if I throw this pedal in front of my xyz with my xyz cab, it'll sound just like so and so." Except unless you're using a cab with a totally flat response, and just a power amp with no colouration, it won't. If you're using a Kubicki into some Genz-Benz into a ampeg 4x10, no pedal you put infront of it will make it sound like a Jazz Bass run into a wall of cranked Marshalls and 4x12s. I'd also say I'm mostly speaking in regards to live sound here, because as many have pointed out, there is such a rabbit hole of variables when it comes to studio recordings. Now for recording purposes, sure, if you run your bass DI into the board, and then use the best emulators for the micing, cab, amp, board, whatever, that may work.
And as far as maybe not achieving those tones you're after with a SVT, well, I'm a bit biased, but I'd say that's likely because it's not really the amp that was held as a standard for pre-1970 recordings. If you're after the sound of British bands from that period, you should be looking at Hiwatts and Marshalls, which I think and SVT and 8x10s are quite a far cry from. A lot of people will say that SVTs are the sound of classic rock, but given they weren't out until '69, they aren't the sound of earlier classic rock (nor many of the big bands in the early 70s). Or, if you are using an SVT, not cranking the preamp gain, but making sure that power section is reaching distortion (maybe a bit of a volume issue with an SVT). If you're looking for power amp drive, I recommend lower wattage amps and efficient speakers, which is the route I go.
Click to expand...
The SVT is a fantastic amp, but this is true, it came out right at the end of the 60s, so obviously wasn't used that widely until the 70s. While the B-15 was on many recordings, that's a fairly different sounding amp, even though it was made by the same company and shares a similar (though much simpler) tone stack.

The fact is, there isn't just one "old school sound." Whose in particular are we talking about? Because Jamerson's motown hit recordings and the Who's Live at Leeds came out within a decade of each other and don't sound much alike.

DavidEdenAria said:
But, the SVT quickly turned into a big live bass rig for so many big touring bands....along with the Acoustic rigs.

For me the biggest change in bass tone occurred when the Musicman Stingray came into play in the mid 70's...I saw so many bands with Stingrays in the late 70's and early 80's.

But then, the 80's started the 'modern bass tone'...Ibanez and all of the others thru GK rigs, imo.
Click to expand...
The funny thing is that "modern bass tone" isn't really in fashion among younger rock players anymore. Most of the time at shows I go to of bands around my age, the bassist is using something that intentionally hearkens back to the sounds of the 60s and 70s.
 
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#197
fdeck said:
Didn't Jamerson record direct, through a homemade preamp?
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Meghans Dad said:
Yep, according to everything I've read. The preamp was built specifically for the soundboard.
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He did when Motown was in Detroit. When he moved to California (and make no mistake, Jamerson recorded plenty of big hits in California, both for Motown and for other companies), he quite often used a B-15 both direct and mic'ed.
 
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