If I'm driving a midi synth with a bass guitar - I'm using it with a bass.
This thread paraphrased -
"What do you want to eat?"
"I'd like a steak"
"No you wouldn't"
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If I'm driving a midi synth with a bass guitar - I'm using it with a bass.
This thread paraphrased -
"What do you want to eat?"
"I'd like a steak"
"No you wouldn't"
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Not sure where you are coming from?
I have said several times that I'm trying to determine what is important to the majority of players... I doubt even 1% of bass players are using their rigs for bass synth. For those who do, you really need to do your own due diligence because each one of these applications are going to be quite unique, in ways that most bass amp manufacturers are not going to have the necessary information or experience to give good information on.
As to your second comment, there are folks here that are trying to learn and understand a lot of what these specs mean and how they might (or might not) apply to their own real world applications. Part of this exercise is to explain WHY some specs that might SEEM to be valuable on the surface are actually worthless in the actual intended use of the amp. If you don't agree, then I encourage you to consider only amps that are rated in a way that suits your own personal needs, but I also ask that you refrain from rude comments that insult the intelligence of everybody else (including me) who is participating and making helpful and useful suggestions.
If you can't help making rude comments, than please don't participate. (see my post #1)
Your statement was:
"state your opinions as to what an "ideal" amplifier spec. sheet should contain."
Not "state your opinion as to what specs you think would be useful to the majority of bass players in normal situations with which I agree".
You didn't ask for realistic. You didn't ask for useful to the majority of people. You didn't ask for specs which are useful but protect the designers IP.
You asked for folks opinion of what an ideal specification sheet would contain.
I haven't made any rude comments. I've merely disagreed with you.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Your original opinion was fine, it was your response to my comments that was objecting to. My response was consistent to the entire reason for the thread, and maybe a way to come up with something more useful rather than falling back on something that is not very useful to the intended applications of a bass amp.
If not outright rude, certainly disrespectful.
If not outright rude, certainly disrespectful.
I think asking people for their opinion - then telling them their opinion is functionally wrong is kind of disrespectful. You asked for opinion of ideal - not help in designing a realistic spec sheet for an amp that will pass muster with the lawyers, marketers, and designers while being useful to the majority of users.
I know plenty of things I'd like in my ideal spec sheet aren't realistic (complete schematics with all part numbers for example) - but that doesn't mean it ISN'T my ideal, or that the opinion is wrong.
Designing a useful to the typical user spec sheet that passes muster with all stakeholders may be consistent to your entire reason for the thread, but if so - your initial question ISN'T consistent to your entire reason for the thread.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Of course 1 Watt equals 1 Watt but, like it happened with Animal Farm, some Watts are more equal.
IMO this thread parahphrased clearly that expections in an possible answer that was asked to question "what is an equal Watt number" are quite different.
If we as bass players uesed to live all on Orwell's Animal Farm and we might served steady sine waves for dish day after day so we would just feel happy so far cause all animals equal the same.
Every serious and well trained FOH engineer (those folks who well know about their pro stuff) may be pretty happy to enjoy benefits of a DSP tool that predicts the amplifier to never push more average power than 1/4 of the data spec sheet rating.
While a musician likely might argue he never ever will pay money for a "******" 1000 watt amplifier he can only get 500 Watt (average RMS) out of it.
Is that different animal?
IMO no, cause that's different comprehenison
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
This is exactly what I was trying to get across.
1/4-power duty cycle is going to be fairly heavily compressed (with respect to dynamic range on a typical bass signal), if I'm seeing a signal with 50% duty cycle (to clarify, since duty cycle can be defined in other ways for entirely different and unrelated discussions, I'm talking about 50% of average rated power) than I know that the signal is VERY severely compressed/clipped, and is probably not a valid signal, so I might choose to protect the amp (and speaker) by transitioning into protect mode if this signal is present for say 1/2 second or more. This is where the defining algorithms become "secret sauce" and manufacturer IP specific. All the very big pro audio power amps have a variety of such schemes built into their operating conditions functionality.
If someone goes for dinner to restaurant and orders "steady sine waves" 300 Watt RMS continuous,
I'm pretty sure he can't all eat up if was served only 1/3 of the order
Actually he would pay the bill without any complaints cause he would feel totally "supersaturated"
I'm pretty sure he can't all eat up if was served only 1/3 of the order
Actually he would pay the bill without any complaints cause he would feel totally "supersaturated"
I think the bold remarked word explains the contratiction you feel.
If I don't know what was the total number of 1+1 then every opnion is fine.
If I know that the total number must equal 2 then any answer different this number is "functionally" wrong.
Don't get me wrong but I can't see "functionally" contratictions to the question the OP asked with his initial post.
Working as an ingineer for "daytime" job as free lancer
"functionally wrong"
versus
"interesting opinion"
personally I'd prefer the former whenever I was wrong
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I also use Class D bass amplifiers for something other than a stringed instrument that has high peak to average ratios. I play organ and occasionally sham bass behind a funkish horn band. For this I use either an LM2 or TH500 to externally amplify a custom Leslie speaker (3015LF-4/EV1829). Neither amp breaks a sweat.
Just let me do another metaphor
all watts are the same like all animals are the same
some watts are more equal just like some animals are more equal.
lets brake the chain to make them all the same
all watts are the same like all animals are the same
some watts are more equal just like some animals are more equal.
lets brake the chain to make them all the same
I understand my usage model is not the norm.
I've actually got an audio amplifier currently handed out to a student... to run a shaker table.
I've also got one driving a pair of woofers - one at each end of a 50 gallon drum with one being fed 100-2KHz white noise, and the other being fed a highly processed noise cancellation signal - attempting to null the noise at the center of the drum.
My ideal spec sheet isn't "wrong" - it just covers a lot of corner cases and unusual usages.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Right, and you will typically find that warranties don't cover such applications as they are well outside the intended use of the product.
There are amps that are designed for such purposes, and their specs are tailored for what's important for that application. My retired engineering partner worked for a test lab that specialized in destructive vibration analysis for the aerospace industry, he designed such systems using components rated for the duty cycles and power levels encountered. There were a few audio companies that also produced specialized models of their audio amps for this industry, but in most cases they were heavily fortified beyond what a stock product was. Of course they are more expensive than a stock product, and larger, and heavier too because the additional fortifications for such an application would never be encountered in an MI application.
Here are a few examples:
Invalid Link Removed (amplifier integrated within the transducer)
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http://www.dataphysics.com/products...ories-signalforce/signalforce-amplifiers.html
I don't know if the story is true, but I have read that Lab Gruppen demonstrated the robustness of amplifiers by using them as an arc welder.
Maybe the metal crowd would like a specification as to the ability of an amp to weld a certain number of feet of 18ga mild steel sheet lap joints driven by a heavily distorted speed metal guitar signal per minute.
Maybe the metal crowd would like a specification as to the ability of an amp to weld a certain number of feet of 18ga mild steel sheet lap joints driven by a heavily distorted speed metal guitar signal per minute.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,047
- 5
- 221,002
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Here's an example of how amplifiers tailor their "continuous" output to real world conditions. This is just one of several dynamics limiting algorithms used in this amp, and every major high powered pro touring amp employs such techniques (as have I for many years as well, since this is the industry that I came from).
This is one reason WHY today's modern amps are (generally) so reliable, and why some offer 5 or 6 year transferable warranties. I know that my goal is advance this technology to get to as close to zero failures as possible, ultimately this is beneficial to most players.
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You audiophile specs for bass amps now.
20 hz to 20kHz, an audiophile specification. and why for Bass.
Surprisingly, At least one amp designer (tube), Zimmerman, states a bass amp has to have a greater frequency range than a guitar amp. IMO, Zimmerman is saying is that a bass amp is more related to a PA than a guitar amp. In the tube world, this means larger OT's as the lower frequencies saturate the OT and the sound suffers. The bass amps and ss audiophile amps are now brother and sister instead of kissing cousins.
With the advent of modeling amps, you want an amp when set up as neutral to have as little color as possible. Then insert your model for sound you want. this means more knobs.
You then shift the sound limitations to the speaker selection, and then speaker design. which then affect your color palette of your sound. This is where audiophiles become adopted children.
With class D, the limit is those 20 amp plugs found on stage. About 2000 amps total power draw on the amp. To get more power, amps will have to go to 240v double hot input. Not Disaster Area amplification levels (Had to get Douglas Adams in some how). but window fracturing.
Amps designed for extreme metal, black hole level distortion, are the ancestors to the amps of the near future.
20 hz to 20kHz, an audiophile specification. and why for Bass.
Surprisingly, At least one amp designer (tube), Zimmerman, states a bass amp has to have a greater frequency range than a guitar amp. IMO, Zimmerman is saying is that a bass amp is more related to a PA than a guitar amp. In the tube world, this means larger OT's as the lower frequencies saturate the OT and the sound suffers. The bass amps and ss audiophile amps are now brother and sister instead of kissing cousins.
With the advent of modeling amps, you want an amp when set up as neutral to have as little color as possible. Then insert your model for sound you want. this means more knobs.
You then shift the sound limitations to the speaker selection, and then speaker design. which then affect your color palette of your sound. This is where audiophiles become adopted children.
With class D, the limit is those 20 amp plugs found on stage. About 2000 amps total power draw on the amp. To get more power, amps will have to go to 240v double hot input. Not Disaster Area amplification levels (Had to get Douglas Adams in some how). but window fracturing.
Amps designed for extreme metal, black hole level distortion, are the ancestors to the amps of the near future.
