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What are the biggest road blocks to improvement?

#21
I remember coming up in bands where the strongest player was sometimes the most 'educated' and, in others a player would show up without a lick of learnin' and blow everyone off the stage. It perplexed me as to which player type I am/would be.

Truth is that, like the majority of serious players I know, I'm a little of both. I work at the things that I'm not good at (intonation and sight reading head the list) but have great confidence in my ability to play just about anything because I've been at it for so long.

True that: there are some pretty hopeless players, slugging away at mimicking recordings.
 
#22
need4mospd said:
I refuse to believe that. If someone is practicing all day, everyday under the proper instruction, they WILL improve and eventually be excellent musicians. But with that comes extreme dedication and effort. You have to WANT to be a good musician.
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so if i play golf all day, every day, i can beat tiger woods?


my point is that some people are just more gifted than others, and not everyone can reach the same level of playing ability, no matter how much practice is involved.
 
#24
I like to think that I don't let all my book learning get in the way of making music.

Also, I have zero licks. I never practice the physicality of playing (though I play all the time), but with a band I become one with the instrument.

No, rather I study harmony, melody, pitch sense, and trying to internalize a sense of time (but not metronome time) - in general try to develop myself musically rather than develop virtuosity as a bass player.

I saw one of the guitar store wankers - the guys who know enough licks to intimidate young musicians in the 2 seconds it takes them to get a guitar off the wall, plug it in, and hand it to you - and he couldn't play in a band situation worth a damn. That's someone focused on all the wrong things, as far as I'm concerned.

At the end of the day, I'd rather write like McCartney than play like Jaco, but that's just me and where my priorities are, and at the end of the day, I think a McCartney serves a band (at least the kinds of bands I gravitate to) better than a Jaco.

I mean, I enjoy great playing as much as the next guy, but as the country guys say - it takes as more skill to pick the right 2 notes per measure and nail them than it does to pick 16 notes per measure.
 
#25
Luke19Boarder said:
my point is that some people are just more gifted than others, and not everyone can reach the same level of playing ability, no matter how much practice is involved.
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Yes & no. I came from a very musically impoverished background, but I stuck with playing. I'm not as good as some of the musicians I know, but I also know for a fact that they put in more time than I did.

Maybe talent or early exposure to music served them in the beginning my giving them results earlier & therefore more desire to practice, but I know my playing ability is directly tied to the amount of effort I put in to it.
 
#26
MarkTAW said:
Yes & no. I came from a very musically impoverished background, but I stuck with playing. I'm not as good as some of the musicians I know, but I also know for a fact that they put in more time than I did.

Maybe talent or early exposure to music served them in the beginning my giving them results earlier & therefore more desire to practice, but I know my playing ability is directly tied to the amount of effort I put in to it.
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i'm not disagreeing that practice brings improvement, but what i'm trying to say is that different people have different learning curves ... if you and i each spent 100 hours practicing equally as intensely, we'd most likely have different levels of improvement.

i've taken years of lessons, as well as a couple semesters of college level music theory classes, where i honestly spent dozens of hours learning how to read music. i can do it, but not that well. i've never been "fluent" at reading music. i know other people that spent a short amount of time doing the same thing, and can sight-read far better than I can.
 
#28
Axtman said:
I mean flub beginnings of songs, endings, solos, wrong keys, not being tight, come in late, etc.....basically all beginner mistakes.
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Making the same mistake again and again in a set piece of music is, to me, a sign of not having a disciplined attitude. Once you get past the B.S. technique thing of "finger goes here, pluck string, then next finger goes here, pluck string, repeat ad nauseum" then playing is 99% mental IMO.

If someone is aware of their mistakes, yet continues to make them, they're lacking some sort of commitment to the craft aspect of music-making.

As far as timing or not being tight, There are some guys who just seem just never to "get it".
 
#30
need4mospd said:
I refuse to believe that. If someone is practicing all day, everyday under the proper instruction, they WILL improve and eventually be excellent musicians. But with that comes extreme dedication and effort. You have to WANT to be a good musician.
Click to expand...

For the most part I agree, however, I wouldn't say that they become "excellent musicians". I would say that they can become "excellent players". To some that may be "semantics", but IMO there is a vast difference between a "musician" and "someone who plays an instrument".

YMMV.
 
#31
JTE said:
A. Laziness- sure, they put in the time, but they play the same thing over and over again. Even if it's different songs, it's the same stuff. They might even say they want to learn more, but won't put in the time and effort to improve.
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I think this is at least 90% of it. To get better, you need the humility to admit to yourself what you don't do well, and the discipline to sit down and learn it.

I was fortunate enough to study with Todd Johnson, many years ago, and one of the things he drilled into my head was to learn something every time I sit down to practice. Don't just play stuff you already know over and over; you won't improve by doing that.
 
#32
....but I'll add one in a word: fear. We all got fears, and they manifest differently. In my case, once I got over certain fears of making mistakes/performance presence stuff/self-consciousness etc., got to another level. That general advise has been well documented in various ways and in other context's. (i.e., get lost in your instrument and express yourself through your use of dynamics.)

The real-world kind of danger is slipping into a rutt doing the required signature licks playin in a cover band. On the other hand, creating your own signature licks can be just as bad; it's just that you created them! Maybe in a pragmatic sense, one question is what defines 'improvement'?

Jimbob
 
#33
What if Tiger Woods thought to himself, " I'll never be as good as Jack Nickolas" and never applied himself? I bet if it was my dream to play, and I put the time into it, I might be almost as good or better than Tiger. At least parts of my game would improve, and I could be a better putter or long-baller. My guitar player only wants to "have fun". So if it doesn't come easily in the first couple of tries, he ends up not doing it. He practices all the time, but only on the same stuff.
 
#34
severen bassist said:
What if Tiger Woods thought to himself, " I'll never be as good as Jack Nickolas" and never applied himself? I bet if it was my dream to play, and I put the time into it, I might be almost as good or better than Tiger. At least parts of my game would improve, and I could be a better putter or long-baller. My guitar player only wants to "have fun". So if it doesn't come easily in the first couple of tries, he ends up not doing it. He practices all the time, but only on the same stuff.
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With golf you only see the few that make it, there are plenty that work hard and practice and get no results, improvment or reaching your goal are not a gaurantee. Music is the same you have to identify what it is you need to work on, and see it through the best you can. So long as you try 100% you have aquitted yourself to the best you can.:bassist:

Many fail because they don't understand what it is they are trying to achieve, so fail to succesfully apply it.
Look at Jack Nicklas and Tiger Woods for example can you pinpoint what it is that makes them so good, so work on that part of the game or would you see something else that is not important and waste time on that? Just for fun, tell me what makes them so good? and for fun see if it matches what i believe. I'll be back in the morning and post my view.:D
 
#35
Luke19Boarder said:
so if i play golf all day, every day, i can beat tiger woods?
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Nope. But no one's talking about just playing. It's all about practice, study, and rigorous attention to details. It's about critical analysis of one's strengths and weaknesses, and focus on how to build on the strengths and how to alleviate the weaknesses. That's a lot different than just playing.

Maybe with all that stuff I won't attain the musical knowledge and imagination of Jamerson, McCartney, Pastorious, or Manring. But WITH those critical skills I'll be able to be not only better than I am, but better than many many bassists are.

John
 
#36
Here is a little story from a great teacher and friend I admire that may sum this up. You take 2 guys (lets call them Wayne and Garth). Wayne has a natural ability to play he can pick things up very quickley but never practices. Garth has some ability but not the amount Wayne has, however he practices consistently and is constantly pushing himself. In an undetermined amount of time Garth will be come the better player unless Wayne gets his act together.
 

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