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What are you reading Chapter 4

It’s worth noting that Diamond’s previous works have been pretty heavily criticized by actual historians. He tends toward pop history offering simple answers to complex questions, and I would be very wary of taking anything he writes as particularly accurate or insightful.

True, though I wouldn't deny him a place among "actual historians" or be dismissive of him. His work has been very influential, even if it doesn't turn out to be the authoritative explanation it appears to be.

Funny, just a propos of this, I just finished Kyle Harper's Plagues Upon the Earth, which is a sweeping history of human disease, from the origins of humanity to the present. Fascinating read and very illuminating, though with all macro-narratives of this scope, one always wonders how well it will stand up to scrutiny. Either way, I learned a lot. For instance, I had heard before that people with ancestry in certain parts of Africa are prone to sickle cell anemia, but I never knew why. Turns out that malaria is massively endemic in that part of the world, and the malaria microbe feeds on human red blood cells and can be very lethal. Anemia, even though it's an illness that weakens a person, gives them a better chance of surviving malaria by starving the virus, so it's adaptive to the disease environment.

Another interesting one was polio. My mother had it as a little girl in the 50s. It seems that, ironically, the polio epidemic of her generation was actually a product of better disease control. In an earlier era, children had generally been exposed to it as babies, when they were still protected by their mothers' antibodies in breast milk and thus developed an immunity. With greater sanitation and hygiene they no longer got that exposure so early, and the way the disease works, the later in childhood you're exposed to it, the worse it is. My mother was 11 and it paralyzed her from the waist down for a time.

As far as Diamond goes, a central idea of Guns, Germs, and Steel is the "germs" part. In this narrative, when Europeans cross the Atlantic, they bring with them a whole battery of lethal diseases that they're resistant to and the natives aren't. They have all these diseases because they developed agriculture earlier and there are lots of zoonotic microbes they get from their farm animals. These diseases then ravage the Native American population without the Europeans even really understanding how, thus paving the way for conquest and colonization.

According to Harper, though, this doesn't really take account of the way these diseases actually work. There ARE zoonotic diseases (ones that originate in another species and make the jump to humans), but that's only one category of several types. Perhaps more importantly, when you look at the records, the European colonizers are getting ravaged by disease as much as the natives are. Famously, half the people on the Mayflower don't survive the first year. Colonization was actually deadly to the colonizers too. Also, as Covid taught us, diseases themselves have dynamic histories; new strains emerge at particular points in time and turn out to be more or less virulent than their ancestors. It takes several thousand years for humans to evolve an adaptation to resist a disease as a population, as happened with malaria in Africa; But most of the other diseases involved in the Columbian exchange were more recent than that. People only become immune after they personally have been exposed to it, not by ancestry. As anyone who knows the Edward Jenner story should know, Europeans didn't have some innate immunity to smallpox in Columbus' day (nor for centuries after). It killed them too. (A bit weirdly, too, plague was not among the diseases exported to the Americas, even though it was still affecting Europe all through the early modern period).

So the story is not as simple as Old World diseases kill off New World population, immune Old World colonists sweep in to take over emptied-out land. The use of violence in conquest is also critical. What seems to have happened, in Harper's analysis, is that normally after a lethal epidemic, populations recover; people have more babies, and life as usual resumes. But in colonial settings, this didn't happen, because European action inhibited it among the natives. People were driven off their land or forced into slave plantations or labor in gold and silver mines. Harper doesn't go there, but it occurs to me that alongside the trio of the title, Diamond had talked about European literacy as another asset enabling their conquests. He was probably right, but not so much for the reason he suggested, that it made Europeans craftier strategists and more alert (or prone) to treachery. It may have been the application of tools of state control, of bureaucracy and regimentation, that enabled them to prevent population recovery and thus end up dominating in the long term. It also drove propaganda about the New World that recruited more and more adventurers willing to risk death and disease to make their fortunes overseas. Otherwise the early modern European intrusion into the Americas might have been as temporary an episode as Leif Ericsson's.
 
I just wrapped up Invisible Cities by Italo Calvino. Even though translated from Italian, it was well written. The conceit is Marco Polo is reporting Kublai Khan on all of the fantastic cities he has encountered. It’s very surreal, a bit thought-provoking, though completely plotless.

During my commute, I am for the second time going through all of Joe Abercrombie‘s audiobooks read by Stephen Pacey. Dark fantasy way more enjoyable than Game of Thrones.
 
"conquests"? Isnt that something that always happens? The Roman Empire didnt last forever. Are deals broken on both sides? In most wars? Did we actually purchase some of the land? Were the people here already fighting over land? Is one type of war more brutal than another?
Its a pretty nice place to live now though. If someone is offended enough about conguest and colonization, why stay here? Arent there places in the world where that didnt happen? Doubtful. Many people seem to want to come to this conquested, colonized place, with its luxuries, freedoms, wealth, you know, all that terrible stuff. Pretty awesome country that i served for 11 years with the Army in my twenties. Thanks colonizers, thank you very much.
Probably be reprimanded, but i didnt start this train of thought with books about the evils done here.
 
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"conquests"? Isnt that something that always happens? The Roman Empire didnt last forever. Are deals broken on both sides? In most wars? Did we actually purchase some of the land? Were the people here already fighting over land? Is one type of war more brutal than another?
Its a pretty nice place to live now though. If someone is offended enough about conguest and colonization, why stay here? Arent there places in the world where that didnt happen? Doubtful. Many people seem to want to come to this conquested, colonized place, with its luxuries, freedoms, wealth, you know, all that terrible stuff. Pretty awesome country that i served for 11 years with the Army in my twenties. Thanks colonizers, thank you very much.
Probably be reprimanded, but i didnt start this train of thought with books about the evils done here.

There have indeed been many wars of conquest all around the world throughout history. I wasn't writing about those, and Harper's book is not about them, although he does discuss how infectious disease epidemics were a common concomitant of wars generally (large numbers of people packed densely into army camps or besieged cities, populations moving across the landscape, people displaced from the homes and normal support resources, etc.). Disease often killed more people than weapons.

The colonial conquests of the America are distinct because of the role that disease played in devastating native populations, as noted. The question, as between Diamond and Harper, here, is how and why it played out the way it did.

This is a historical discussion. Nothing about your army service or who's offended by what. It's about books that analyze historical events. People who want to bring it to bear on modern political discussions and culture wars may do so on some other part of the internet. Here on TB it's against the terms of service, which I hope everyone will remember.
 
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True, though I wouldn't deny him a place among "actual historians" or be dismissive of him. His work has been very influential, even if it doesn't turn out to be the authoritative explanation it appears to be.

I don’t have time to dive into the rest of this excellent comment, but just to address this one point I should clarify I meant that as a categorical statement not a value judgment. Diamond does not, as far as I am aware, have much if any formal training as a historian.

For the larger point, I think any of these “One simple trick to completely understand history/economics/sociology” type books (looking at you Malcolm Gladwell) are intrinsically harmful not so much for the actual misinformation they contain, but more so for perpetuating the idea that there are simple and easy explanations (and thus solutions) to extremely complex situations. That’s always an appealing mindset anyway, and having it reinforced via a source of authority like a book is not ideal.
 
"conquests"? Isnt that something that always happens? The Roman Empire didnt last forever. Are deals broken on both sides? In most wars? Did we actually purchase some of the land? Were the people here already fighting over land? Is one type of war more brutal than another?
Its a pretty nice place to live now though. If someone is offended enough about conguest and colonization, why stay here? Arent there places in the world where that didnt happen? Doubtful. Many people seem to want to come to this conquested, colonized place, with its luxuries, freedoms, wealth, you know, all that terrible stuff. Pretty awesome country that i served for 11 years with the Army in my twenties. Thanks colonizers, thank you very much.
Probably be reprimanded, but i didnt start this train of thought with books about the evils done here.

This seems like a weird reaction to someone discussing the fact that conquest and genocide are things that happened.

I suppose that on a very superficial level things like colonization or slavery are common enough throughout history that most people have some ancestor that engaged in them or benefited from them. The same is undoubtedly true of other terrible things like rape or pedophilia, but I’ve never seen fit to become outraged over people saying those things are bad (or even just observing that they happened, like we were doing in this thread) and I’ve certainly never taken it to the extreme of saying “Thank you rapists, if it weren’t for you I wouldn’t be here!”
 
I don’t have time to dive into the rest of this excellent comment, but just to address this one point I should clarify I meant that as a categorical statement not a value judgment. Diamond does not, as far as I am aware, have much if any formal training as a historian.

For the larger point, I think any of these “One simple trick to completely understand history/economics/sociology” type books (looking at you Malcolm Gladwell) are intrinsically harmful not so much for the actual misinformation they contain, but more so for perpetuating the idea that there are simple and easy explanations (and thus solutions) to extremely complex situations. That’s always an appealing mindset anyway, and having it reinforced via a source of authority like a book is not ideal.
Funny, I hadn't thought of it. I just looked him up and discovered he's a biologist by training. In that light, Guns, Germs and Steel would be more like an effort to apply biological paradigms (evolution, environmental adaptation) to historical narratives, in that case the question why Europeans colonized New Guinea or wherever rather than vice versa. That IS always a risky proposition; I'm often seeing interpretations of history from people in other fields that are filled with howlers because they don't really know the sources or the historiography well, and often overgeneralize on the basis of outdated ideas. Still, on the other hand, in my view anyone who "does" history is an historian, whether or not they have the academic training, and I do think Diamond has merited being taken seriously, even if his moment has passed.
 
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Funny, I hadn't thought of it. I just looked him up and discovered he's a biologist by training. In that light, Guns, Germs and Steel would be more like an effort to apply biological paradigms (evolution, environmental adaptation) to historical narratives, in that case the question why Europeans colonized New Guinea or wherever rather than vice versa. That IS always a risky proposition; I'm often seeing interpretations of history from people in other fields that are filled with howlers because they don't really know the sources or the historiography well, and often overgeneralize on the basis of outdated ideas. Still, on the other hand, in my view anyone who "does" history is an historian, whether or not they have the academic training, and I do think Diamond has merited being taken seriously, even if his moment has passed.

I do building engineering at high rises in Seattle so I’ve worked around a lot of incredibly smart lawyers and neurosurgeons and bio tech people etc. There is no class of people I deal with who are more prone to being extremely wrong and extremely convinced they are right than brilliant and accomplished people working outside their scope. The number of times I’ve gotten a work order that the lights are out in a conference room only to discover that the people inside (collective billing amount of all of them together is probably $20,000 an hour) did not think to try turning in the light switch is surprisingly high.
 
I am rereading sections of this book as I work on the design of our upcoming addition ("master" bedroom suite and kura).

Measure And Construction Of The Japanese House-Heino Engel a.jpeg
 
True, though I wouldn't deny him a place among "actual historians" or be dismissive of him. His work has been very influential, even if it doesn't turn out to be the authoritative explanation it appears to be.

Funny, just a propos of this, I just finished Kyle Harper's Plagues Upon the Earth, which is a sweeping history of human disease, from the origins of humanity to the present. Fascinating read and very illuminating, though with all macro-narratives of this scope, one always wonders how well it will stand up to scrutiny. Either way, I learned a lot. For instance, I had heard before that people with ancestry in certain parts of Africa are prone to sickle cell anemia, but I never knew why. Turns out that malaria is massively endemic in that part of the world, and the malaria microbe feeds on human red blood cells and can be very lethal. Anemia, even though it's an illness that weakens a person, gives them a better chance of surviving malaria by starving the virus, so it's adaptive to the disease environment.

Another interesting one was polio. My mother had it as a little girl in the 50s. It seems that, ironically, the polio epidemic of her generation was actually a product of better disease control. In an earlier era, children had generally been exposed to it as babies, when they were still protected by their mothers' antibodies in breast milk and thus developed an immunity. With greater sanitation and hygiene they no longer got that exposure so early, and the way the disease works, the later in childhood you're exposed to it, the worse it is. My mother was 11 and it paralyzed her from the waist down for a time.

As far as Diamond goes, a central idea of Guns, Germs, and Steel is the "germs" part. In this narrative, when Europeans cross the Atlantic, they bring with them a whole battery of lethal diseases that they're resistant to and the natives aren't. They have all these diseases because they developed agriculture earlier and there are lots of zoonotic microbes they get from their farm animals. These diseases then ravage the Native American population without the Europeans even really understanding how, thus paving the way for conquest and colonization.

According to Harper, though, this doesn't really take account of the way these diseases actually work. There ARE zoonotic diseases (ones that originate in another species and make the jump to humans), but that's only one category of several types. Perhaps more importantly, when you look at the records, the European colonizers are getting ravaged by disease as much as the natives are. Famously, half the people on the Mayflower don't survive the first year. Colonization was actually deadly to the colonizers too. Also, as Covid taught us, diseases themselves have dynamic histories; new strains emerge at particular points in time and turn out to be more or less virulent than their ancestors. It takes several thousand years for humans to evolve an adaptation to resist a disease as a population, as happened with malaria in Africa; But most of the other diseases involved in the Columbian exchange were more recent than that. People only become immune after they personally have been exposed to it, not by ancestry. As anyone who knows the Edward Jenner story should know, Europeans didn't have some innate immunity to smallpox in Columbus' day (nor for centuries after). It killed them too. (A bit weirdly, too, plague was not among the diseases exported to the Americas, even though it was still affecting Europe all through the early modern period).

So the story is not as simple as Old World diseases kill off New World population, immune Old World colonists sweep in to take over emptied-out land. The use of violence in conquest is also critical. What seems to have happened, in Harper's analysis, is that normally after a lethal epidemic, populations recover; people have more babies, and life as usual resumes. But in colonial settings, this didn't happen, because European action inhibited it among the natives. People were driven off their land or forced into slave plantations or labor in gold and silver mines. Harper doesn't go there, but it occurs to me that alongside the trio of the title, Diamond had talked about European literacy as another asset enabling their conquests. He was probably right, but not so much for the reason he suggested, that it made Europeans craftier strategists and more alert (or prone) to treachery. It may have been the application of tools of state control, of bureaucracy and regimentation, that enabled them to prevent population recovery and thus end up dominating in the long term. It also drove propaganda about the New World that recruited more and more adventurers willing to risk death and disease to make their fortunes overseas. Otherwise the early modern European intrusion into the Americas might have been as temporary an episode as Leif Ericsson's.
There's also a related theory about which diseases the colonizers caught from the natives. In many cases, it appears that the colonizers are simply unfamiliar with the disease, and don't give it a consistent name across their various records, so the idea of a specific disease has eluded history. The colonizers are familiar with their diseases, and then are able to name it in their records when they see the natives suffering. And if memory serves, there's a current theory that syphilis may have been native to the Americas, as there are no records of it prior to the Columbian Exchange.

Of course, this is based off of an article I read a few years ago, and I am by no means an expert in this theory. It's also quite possible that it wasn't syphilis, but some other disease (though I'm fairly sure it was a disease with negative social connotations and spread via sexual intercourse). I just thought it was an interesting question, as you rarely hear of colonizers getting sick, but modern medicine knows that germs will spread both ways.
 
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Started reading The Collapse: The Accidental Opening Of The Berlin Wall yesterday. Fascinating stuff, and I didn't realize so much was going on in Leipzig at the time. I was aware of the various "vacations" people set up to try and escape, but not of mass protests. Loving it so far.
Finished this today, and am just astounded at the various links to all sorts of things going on. The aforementioned Rammstein notwithstanding, the fall of the wall and related events directly influenced Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin to enter politics, to free up American troops for the Iraq war, and was able to slip in just the right time between countless political schemes to just barely happen. All non-violently (from the protesters, at least). Just an amazing story, and I'm glad I picked this one up form the library!

Next up: The Civil War In Missouri: A Military History - as a Missourian myself, I'm excited to get details on an often overlooked theater in the Civil War.
 
This seems like a weird reaction to someone discussing the fact that conquest and genocide are things that happened.

I suppose that on a very superficial level things like colonization or slavery are common enough throughout history that most people have some ancestor that engaged in them or benefited from them. The same is undoubtedly true of other terrible things like rape or pedophilia, but I’ve never seen fit to become outraged over people saying those things are bad (or even just observing that they happened, like we were doing in this thread) and I’ve certainly never taken it to the extreme of saying “Thank you rapists, if it weren’t for you I wouldn’t be here!”
Not outraged. Maybe a bit tired of, even from historians, the implication that the U.S. exists only due to conquest, genocide, slavery, or colonization, which implies all the people that came here participated in those things. My point was we benefit from those that came before, and there was also bravery and honor. Not just bad things. Your rape example doesnt apply because we dont bring it up to vilify the victim.
 
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I do building engineering at high rises in Seattle so I’ve worked around a lot of incredibly smart lawyers and neurosurgeons and bio tech people etc. There is no class of people I deal with who are more prone to being extremely wrong and extremely convinced they are right than brilliant and accomplished people working outside their scope. The number of times I’ve gotten a work order that the lights are out in a conference room only to discover that the people inside (collective billing amount of all of them together is probably $20,000 an hour) did not think to try turning in the light switch is surprisingly high.
1749547786319.webp
 
There's also a related theory about which diseases the colonizers caught from the natives. In many cases, it appears that the colonizers are simply unfamiliar with the disease, and don't give it a consistent name across their various records, so the idea of a specific disease has eluded history. The colonizers are familiar with their diseases, and then are able to name it in their records when they see the natives suffering. And if memory serves, there's a current theory that syphilis may have been native to the Americas, as there are no records of it prior to the Columbian Exchange.

Of course, this is based off of an article I read a few years ago, and I am by no means an expert in this theory. It's also quite possible that it wasn't syphilis, but some other disease (though I'm fairly sure it was a disease with negative social connotations and spread via sexual intercourse). I just thought it was an interesting question, as you rarely hear of colonizers getting sick, but modern medicine knows that germs will spread both ways.
Genetics has done a lot to illuminate these kinds of questions recently, most of it since Diamond's book came out. It's definitely the case that older descriptions of diseases can be maddeningly vague sometimes and it's not always clear what the actual disease was. It was even controversial whether the Black Death was really Bubonic Plague when I was in grad school in the 90s/early 2000s. Syphilis DNA has been found in old-world burials from a generation before Columbus, so the theory that conquistadores brought smallpox and typhus and a host of other diseases to America and only brought syphilis back seems to have been abandoned. But that's only very recently.
 
Genetics has done a lot to illuminate these kinds of questions recently, most of it since Diamond's book came out. It's definitely the case that older descriptions of diseases can be maddeningly vague sometimes and it's not always clear what the actual disease was. It was even controversial whether the Black Death was really Bubonic Plague when I was in grad school in the 90s/early 2000s. Syphilis DNA has been found in old-world burials from a generation before Columbus, so the theory that conquistadores brought smallpox and typhus and a host of other diseases to America and only brought syphilis back seems to have been abandoned. But that's only very recently.
Wait a minute, the idea was that syphilis was brought back from the 'new world'???? Wasn't it established that syphilis has been around forever in Europe?

That's a new one to me.
 
Wait a minute, the idea was that syphilis was brought back from the 'new world'???? Wasn't it established that syphilis has been around forever in Europe?

That's a new one to me.

Hardly any disease has been around "forever." A lot of them evolved within historical time, at least in the forms we now suffer them. Like we saw with COVID - there are lots of coronaviruses, and most of them have only ever caused cold or maybe flu symptoms. COVID-19 was a new strain that was way more lethal than the old ones. With syphilis, it only starts showing up in the documentary record in the 16th century, if I recall correctly, hence the thesis that it was brought back from the Americas. But like I said, genetic studies have found samples of it from before Columbus - but only by a generation or two.
 
Hardly any disease has been around "forever." A lot of them evolved within historical time, at least in the forms we now suffer them. Like we saw with COVID - there are lots of coronaviruses, and most of them have only ever caused cold or maybe flu symptoms. COVID-19 was a new strain that was way more lethal than the old ones. With syphilis, it only starts showing up in the documentary record in the 16th century, if I recall correctly, hence the thesis that it was brought back from the Americas. But like I said, genetic studies have found samples of it from before Columbus - but only by a generation or two.
Well, thank you TB, I learned something. For whatever reason, I thought syphilis had been around since the time of the Roman empire.
 
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Not outraged. Maybe a bit tired of, even from historians, the implication that the U.S. exists only due to conquest, genocide, slavery, or colonization, which implies all the people that came here participated in those things. My point was we benefit from those that came before, and there was also bravery and honor. Not just bad things. Your rape example doesnt apply because we dont bring it up to vilify the victim.

I mean those aren’t implications simply factual statements. Your emotional response to those facts isn’t terribly relevant to their existence.