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Double Bass What Cab for the Mic Blend?

flatback

flatback

May 6, 2004
2,990
2,667
#1
This is a question especially for those purveyors of new cabs specifically for double bass. I have gone thru all the wars with pick ups and mics and amps and what not over the years and after getting really frustrated and then bored and then simply getting real about my needs I have ended up with a pickup that really cuts (piezo) into the headway, and a DPA 4099 into the 2nd channel of the AI Focus III. When I can I use more mic and when I cant I use the pick up. It works. For some years I have used the EA Wizzy 10's either 1 or 2. but I dont really like the sound much. about a year ago I went back to my old school Kolby 112 (it weighs about 4000lbs) It has good response up on a chair on the floor wherever. It is not a perfect cab though...
My question: Given a bass amp, a pickup, and a DPA 4099 what is the best cab for MIXING A MIC WITH A PICK UP?. What cab can cut the difference best? How do these Crazy 8 cabs do with a mic?
I dont have FOH much and yet I do a lot of duo, trio, quartet work where I really can use the mic for a lot of things.
I am really interested in these new small cabs but there is no mention of how they sound with a mic?
 
#3
I can speak to that as I have been using a DPA exclusively into a Crazy88 for the past few months. Personally I love it. When I turn it on, the room fills with the sound of my bass. It is nearly as if there is no speaker involved at all.

Interestingly, I compared the DPA and a newly acquired Ehrlund through the Headway last night and there is very little difference in sound. The Ehrlund gets louder before feedback and the DPA has a little more air in the sound, but other than that they are really close sonically.
 
#4
Nathan Levine said:
I can speak to that as I have been using a DPA exclusively into a Crazy88 for the past few months. Personally I love it. When I turn it on, the room fills with the sound of my bass. It is nearly as if there is no speaker involved at all.

Interestingly, I compared the DPA and a newly acquired Ehrlund through the Headway last night and there is very little difference in sound. The Ehrlund gets louder before feedback and the DPA has a little more air in the sound, but other than that they are really close sonically.
Click to expand...

Nathan,
If I recall correctly, Piro wasn't satisfied with the sound of the Ehrlund, on his bass, and sold it. Personally. my experience comparing the DPA 4099B to the Ehrlund EAP is the same as yours, the DPA has a little more edge definition, or air, because it's a mic, while the Ehrlund gets louder, and has a slightly darker timbre. Nice thing about the Ehrlund is there is no phantom power required.

Ric
 
#5
OK you cats, I know about the love affair with the triangular miracle but I was not sold. It does not sound like a mic to me, but a contact mic, which I have given fair play (stat B Dyn B Vector) they amplify (to my ears) the sound of the surface of the instrument. The 4099 does not sound as good as I remember the Heil does but it works really well for what I do, and sounds like a mic. The bridge pickup I use us direct, but the two together (favoring the mic when I can) is the best I've come up with and I am looking for the cab that is the best for this type set up.
 
#6
Sorry my brain derails somewhat easily. I'll save the Ehrlund lovefest for the Ehrlund threads.

What I was getting at before going off topic was that the DPA sounds fantastic through the Crazy88 and since most people using/loving it are using some form of piezo, it it probably safe to say that this would be a good cabinet for mixing two different signals.
 
#7
flatback said:
OK you cats, I know about the love affair with the triangular miracle but I was not sold. It does not sound like a mic to me, but a contact mic, which I have given fair play (stat B Dyn B Vector) they amplify (to my ears) the sound of the surface of the instrument. The 4099 does not sound as good as I remember the Heil does but it works really well for what I do, and sounds like a mic. The bridge pickup I use us direct, but the two together (favoring the mic when I can) is the best I've come up with and I am looking for the cab that is the best for this type set up.
Click to expand...

Piro,
Well, here's the thing, into the house the DPA 4099B works great for me, but into an amp, specifically either of two Walter Woods amps (MI-400-8 and Electroacoustic Ultra) using either a Audiokinesis TC 112 or the older VL 208, and it's feedback city. Personally, I'm not that enamored with the whole blending thing, with my rig, I'd prefer the sound of the mic by itself, if it had enough gain. So I'm sticking with the DPA 4099B into the house and the Ehrlund into the amp, when I need really good coverage for a concert. As a Double Bass Cabinet I really dig the TC 112. Whether or not it will work with your setup, I couldn't say. Oddly enough, the AMT SP25B worked better into the Woods amps, as it had more gain before it feed back. If I run the DPA into a Headway EDB-1, I have to bypass it's preamp and run directly into the return on the effects loop, sounds pretty nice, but it's way easier, in my particular case to just use the Ehrlund.

Ric
 
#8
flatback said:
OK you cats, I know about the love affair with the triangular miracle but I was not sold. It does not sound like a mic to me, but a contact mic, which I have given fair play (stat B Dyn B Vector) they amplify (to my ears) the sound of the surface of the instrument. The 4099 does not sound as good as I remember the Heil does but it works really well for what I do, and sounds like a mic. The bridge pickup I use us direct, but the two together (favoring the mic when I can) is the best I've come up with and I am looking for the cab that is the best for this type set up.
Click to expand...

A rather expensive, but in my not-so-objective view best, alternative might be the Glockenklang Acoustic Art. I use the old one (very heavy and awkward to transport due to its shape), but the newest version is far more transportable:

Invalid Link Removed

Btw: this is my rig (incl. a 20 kg amp..., but it provides real 48V phantom power ;) ), which I use with a DPA4099B (no additional pickup):

BassArt-6_zps631ffb04.jpg


Cheers,
Vincent
 
#9
flatback said:
I have gone thru all the wars with pick ups and mics and amps and what not over the years and after getting really frustrated and then bored and then simply getting real about my needs I have ended up with a pickup that really cuts (piezo) into the headway, and a DPA 4099 into the 2nd channel of the AI Focus III.
I am really interested in these new small cabs but there is no mention of how they sound with a mic?
Click to expand...

We've had some of these discussions over the years in these same wars, and like you I've gotten tired of all the schlepping and knob-twiddling. The best sounding rig I ever used consistently was a VL208 powered by a FocusIII up on a pole. The pickup was always a Full Circle, and the mics varied (Beta 57/AMT/etc.). The key to the rig was always the pole and the "over the shoulder" placement of the cab. It sounded fantastic, but at over 50 lbs with the added schlep of the pole and extra cables and the extra time soundchecking the thing for every room... Oy, vegh.

I'm happy with my current pickup-only-into-a-combo rig now, but if I went back to the "cab on a pole" concept I'd be checking out three options before anything else: the "Big E" cabs (because the small drivers are similar to what's in my combo, and I love the sound), the Crazy 88 (because the VL208 sounded so good, and because it's light and you can have one built with the pole mount already there), or the QSC K10 or K12 (because the amp is already built in and there's one less thing to assemble on the gig; also because I had a student use one in my combo at the Aebersold camps a few years back and it sounded really nice). Probably in that order. I hope to audition/review some of these in the next year or two.

P.S. - Vunz' rig always looks cool!
 
#10
+1 to Chris re elevating the speaker. I regularly play in one particularly nasty bathtub of a room. I tried running my AI through a 2x10 under the theory that bigger speaker pushing more air at a low volume would produce buttery bass. Wrong. I am now running just the combo AI at shoulder level, with the bass dialed right back, and suddenly the whole band (violins, accordion, drums) is audible and clear.
So for clarity of tone, less bass (from speaker position off the floor and away from corners) is more bass IMHO
Of course, acoustically it's a different story...
 
#12
flatback said:
My question: Given a bass amp, a pickup, and a DPA 4099 what is the best cab for MIXING A MIC WITH A PICK UP?. What cab can cut the difference best? How do these Crazy 8 cabs do with a mic?
I dont have FOH much and yet I do a lot of duo, trio, quartet work where I really can use the mic for a lot of things.
I am really interested in these new small cabs but there is no mention of how they sound with a mic?
Click to expand...

My advice. Skip the mic. I messed with the mic/amp thing for a little while and found it to be more trouble that it's worth. I only use a mic when I have FOH. I know that's not your question but I banged my head against the wall for years trying to get the mic to work with all manner of amps and cabs and finally gave up.
 
#13
Marc Piane said:
My advice. Skip the mic. I messed with the mic/amp thing for a little while and found it to be more trouble that it's worth. I only use a mic when I have FOH. I know that's not your question but I banged my head against the wall for years trying to get the mic to work with all manner of amps and cabs and finally gave up.
Click to expand...

Well, I have to disagree. I've been gigging with a mic exclusively (mostly with an amp only, no FOH) for the last six years or so (started our with an AKG C3000, then a Neumann KM185, and now with a DPA 4099B), and it never failed me. Of course, it is not as plug and play as a pickup, but I always got it to work to great satisfaction of me and my fellow musicians. So, YMMV etc., but it can absolutely be done!

Cheers,
Vincent
 
#14
He's talking blending it with a pickup. I've too played lots of gigs mic only with varying success. I've never found blending through an amp to be worth the extra effort though.

Now I just plug my Realist into a GK MB150s and forget about it. I try to keep the amp volume low enough that you can still hear the bass. I'd rather focus on playing than plugging together a bunch of little boxes and speakers and stuff. Plus, the schlep factor is a big deal for me. I am a hardcore one tripper and in Chicago sometimes loadin and parking are challenges.

That said, when there is FOH I do pickup on stage and mic to the house which is sort of blending I suppose.

Bottom line, do what works for you. I never said it couldn't be done. I'm just sharing my experience.
 
#15
Hey Guys thanks for all the suggestions....
i love the look of that monster cab....not unlike my Kolby112
I really have been thru a lot of this equipment before.
And really I think that if you want to use a mic successfully on gigs with no FOH you have to be willing to turn it off instantly if it aint workin out. That is what I do.
I have one of my Wizzy 10's pole mounted and it works great that way. The difference between it and and Kolby is that the kolby sounds clear and distinct EVERYWHERE where as the Wizzy(s) can sound pretty bad sometimes and pretty hifi but bassless other times.
I wonder of the extreme density of the Kolby cab (1inch thick pressboard) makes a difference? It seems like it just always gets a sound (all be it a kind of old school EV 12 sound)
The big E is what now?
 
#16
Marc Piane said:
He's talking blending it with a pickup. I've too played lots of gigs mic only with varying success. I've never found blending through an amp to be worth the extra effort though.
Click to expand...

+1 When I listen to the difference between the mic and pickup alone vs the blend of the two, what I hear is either the mic dominating the timbre or the pickup dominating the mic. It may give you more volume and presence, but the sound is predominantly either the mic, or the pickup. I just don't find the sound all that different.


Marc Piane said:
Now I just plug my Realist into a GK MB150s and forget about it. I try to keep the amp volume low enough that you can still hear the bass. I'd rather focus on playing than plugging together a bunch of little boxes and speakers and stuff. Plus, the schlep factor is a big deal for me. I am a hardcore one tripper and in Chicago sometimes loadin and parking are challenges.
Click to expand...

I gigged with a GK 200MB and the Underwood, for over 5 years, it was a very practical, durable, and decent sounding rig. The MBS is as close as you'll ever get to the 200MB's EQ and it packs a little more power. I'd never make it to the gig on time if I had to play in Chicago or New York.
St. Louis is really easy to get around in, and load in and out.

Marc Piane said:
That said, when there is FOH I do pickup on stage and mic to the house which is sort of blending I suppose.
Click to expand...


Never thought of it that way, but I guess you are right, cause once the sound moves of the stage and into the house both sources do actually blend together. Interesting.

Marc Piane said:
Bottom line, do what works for you. I never said it couldn't be done. I'm just sharing my experience.
Click to expand...

Amen to that.
 
#17
I'm enjoying this discussion and find it interesting to see others share their experiences. Mine is similar to Marc's. When using a mic I would occasionally get a marginally better sound but it always came at the expense of taking me off the game of making music. A Realist straight into the Clarus and using either a Crazy 8 or B-1 (rarely both) consistently gives me the best sound I could hope for. Sure, a mic might be a bit better on occasion but then again, it's more to think about and it comes with the risk of messing up a GOOD sound.
I sold my latest mic off to a friend in town and he loves it, blending it with a series IIII Coda. It can be done.
 
#18
I guess what I'm saying is I already answered how to do the blending thing. or the one or the other thing. I have an amp, a cable (kinda cool with a mic cable and 1/4 in one cable) it goes to my Focus and cab. When I can I use the mic (ballads quiet tunes duos etc) when I cannot I use the Pickup or a combo (one flick of one volume knob turns the mic on or off) It works really well. The pickup (after years of trying to get one to sound like a mic:Vector, Ehrlund, Schertlers, etc) is a good old Underwood that I wouldn't really use UNLESS I was mixing in some mic (or a really difficult room)
BUT,....
I am interested in the right CAB for this mix? It would be great to hear about say how a mic sounds thru a phil Jones or Crazy * or this Big E or the glockenwang thing that looks so cool but looks heavier then what I am trying to replace. Maybe I should keep my eye out for a EA 208...I have a car and don't really need micro weight (I am much more interested in getting a sound)
But it is really amazing to me that an Underwood with even a little 4099b in there is direct yet totally usable moreso then any other rig I have used (maybe less hifi) but definately consistent and easy and room to room doable. I'd love it if I could find a cab that was lighter and more full spectrum but still consistently usable.
any ideas?
 
#19
Can't answer most of that, but mic signals always sounded like **** through the PJB Super Flightcase. I think it's a Catch-22 of sorts: the amp sounds good because of its ambient nature (two of the drivers face up, toward the player, and 4 face forward). This makes it sound great with a pickup, but an absolute feedback nightmare for a mic. The Big E, OTOH, just *might* be a perfect pole mounted speaker. I hope to try one sometime this year.
 

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