Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
What constitutes a bass player being considered overrated ?
- Thread starter JAUQO III-X
- Start date
- Feb 8, 2005
- 3,636
- 1,053
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
No, but for his critique to carry any weight; s/he should know a lot about what is involved in making a movie, as opposed to just having seen a lot.
bassists, from my experience being only a bassist, are much more elitist than other members of the band, in relation to other bassists.
Roger Ebert, Eric Rohmer, Peter Bogdanovich, Francois Truffaut, and Claude Chabrol all did excellent work in filmmaking
I think you're mistaking a film critic for a filmmaking critic. A film critic judges a film based on its ability to communicate. The only requirement is to watch a movie. Having seen and thought deeply on a ridiculous number of movies, and having insight onto how movies and culture interact with each other makes a better film critic. The behind-the-scenes work that takes place in producing the end product aren't really the concern of the film critic, and the better ones make sure to stay far away from editing decisions and shot composition.
A filmmaking critic, on the other hand, would be someone who critiques the individual shots, the editing decisions, and the filmic language of the screenplay. This sort of critique is generally confined to academic environments. Not just because it's boring, and is of no interest to the average filmgoer. Mainly because someone who hasn't edited or directed or shot a film has no basis on making such a critique.
Music is similar. When Rolling Stone reviews an album, they generally don't comment on the technical difficulty of the bass playing, because that's not what they do. They write about how interesting the album is, how sonically aesthetic the album is, and, probably more than they should, make predictions about what the album means to the past, present and future of rock. Commenting on the technical aspects of an album is reserved for places like TalkBass. As a pretty crappy bassist, I have no room to speak negatively about anyone's playing. When people say "overrated" around here, though, I don't think they're talking about technical ability. I think they're talking about the tunes.
People who criticize other players and bands usually don't have a clue how hard it is to get any level of success in this business, from maintaining a level of mediocrity and playing in bar-bands[me] to being in the forefront of your profession. In all my years of playing the guys who talked the most smack were usually the guys who never tried to even get 4 or 5 people in the same room to write or learn songs, release CDs or put themselves out there to be criticized, they never seem to step up to the plate. It's a lot easier in your own head or room to say you would do a better job than actually go through the work involved to have any level of success. I also notice most of the guys who throw the biggest rocks around here never use their name or put up any form of proof of their superiority.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Roger Ebert, Eric Rohmer, Peter Bogdanovich, Francois Truffaut, and Claude Chabrol all did excellent work in filmmaking
I'm very familiar with your list but that really is a small list, compared to the long list of bass critics here at TB
Tell that to all the hardcore TB critics around here.
People who criticize other players and bands usually don't have a clue how hard it is to get any level of success in this business, from maintaining a level of mediocrity and playing in bar-bands[me] to being in the forefront of your profession. In all my years of playing the guys who talked the most smack were usually the guys who never tried to even get 4 or 5 people in the same room to write or learn songs, release CDs or put themselves out there to be criticized, they never seem to step up to the plate. It's a lot easier in your own head or room to say you would do a better job than actually go through the work involved to have any level of success. I also notice most of the guys who throw the biggest rocks around here never use their name or put up any form of proof of their superiority.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I agree with your story.
evaluating art is very diffrent then evaluating a skill such as a work evaluation. if they are evaluating their music then its impossible to be overrated or under rated you cant do art wrong or be better at art then someone else your art can be more liked but doesnt mean its better its all opinion.
- Feb 8, 2005
- 3,636
- 1,053
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
Perhaps, but it's a semantic point that misses what I would think is the obvious thrust of what I'm saying:
For a critique to be valid, the critic needs to know what s/he is talking about.
Over-rated? When the shower of accolades still keep coming despite a lack of ability, skill, or talent. And so it goes in the music business and the entertainment world in general.
Seems fewer and fewer people in "the biz" are learning their craft, honing their skills, or paying their dues anymore.
Crap is king these days, and it has been for years.
Anybody remember when the vast majority musicians could actually write songs and play their instruments?
Seems fewer and fewer people in "the biz" are learning their craft, honing their skills, or paying their dues anymore.
Crap is king these days, and it has been for years.
Anybody remember when the vast majority musicians could actually write songs and play their instruments?
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
- 11,943
- 3,138
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist- Suhr basses, PedalTrain, GHS, Ultimate Ears
If fact is, you don't have to.
They put it out there with the expectation of some level of attention.
If you put it out there expect praise and harsh criticism.
The old I don't like the new Marcus/Victor/whomever's disc which is responded by "well can you do any better?!?!"
If you can't draw you become an art director or critic.
Can't hit a good three pointer?? Coach.
Never could quite get the chords to "Smoke on the water" right, but love Rock & Roll, critic or A&R guy.
The argument to me of- music is not there to judge- is something I can't wrap my head around.
I severely dis-like rap.
But I can appreciate someone if they do it well.
Still don't like it though
To use you as an example Jaquo, and being friends, I'm OK with saying this because we respct each other, I've publicly stated that your avant guard solo stuff I can't listen too.
Maybe my mind doesn't operate on that level (which more than likely is the case- I'm really an idiot more or less!!)
But I absolutely love the fact that you take chances that will eventually )subjective to some) trickle down into the rest of us.
As for the over rated part, I think thats really propagandized more by main stream media and/or mostly those who are not fully- shall I dare say, "educated" (for lack of a better discriptor- so don't flame me please).
Les Claypool for one. Sure his stuff is wacky and fun at times. But How much out of tune do you have to play on a fretless, or slap poorly on fretted to reach his level of bass "Godly-ness" as touted by MTV or Rolling Stone????
Flea, another one. Good player. If his band didn't get the marketing that they did- and trust me, it's marketing, he would be another OK player.
Nothing he did or does IMO launches him into the upper level of bass status.
Nothing. His grove is OK. Chops average at best. Maybe co-wrote a few good songs that got the proper marketing. Besides that, he's average at best.
There are many more. MANY.
But hey, I can't do any better.....or can I???
Not necessarily...Depends on who's doing the validating..
Music critics are people who can't write, doing interviews with people who can't think, in order to prepare articles for people who can't read.
Frank Zappa
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
- 11,943
- 3,138
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist- Suhr basses, PedalTrain, GHS, Ultimate Ears
People who criticize other players and bands usually don't have a clue how hard it is to get any level of success in this business, from maintaining a level of mediocrity and playing in bar-bands[me] to being in the forefront of your profession. In all my years of playing the guys who talked the most smack were usually the guys who never tried to even get 4 or 5 people in the same room to write or learn songs, release CDs or put themselves out there to be criticized, they never seem to step up to the plate. It's a lot easier in your own head or room to say you would do a better job than actually go through the work involved to have any level of success. I also notice most of the guys who throw the biggest rocks around here never use their name or put up any form of proof of their superiority.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Good story.
I myself, like a thousand and a half guys here and elsewhere have came so crazy close to that "big deal".
Being an overrated player has squat to writing a great song.
Lionel Richey was on Oprah a LONG time ago (man, I'm gonna search the hell outto YouTube for that!).
He sat at a piano and played a few of his hits. And something that stuck with me to this day, Oprah asked him to "play something", "make something up" or to that effect.
He flat out said he couldn't. He only knew the songs he wrote with maybe a few other "simple" ones as well.
Here is a guy, who be all accounts of his own, says he can't play, so to some "opinions" on what an "opinion is worth/it's value", he should be qualified to be on darn near EVERYONES radar.
I couldn't paint a picture like the Mona Lisa even anywhere near that, but I can say I for one think it's an ugly picture of an ugly woman!!!
You don't really have to have the depth of knowledge on a given subject to have an opinion, it sure does help though!!
Taxes are lower now than when Clinton was in office, Democrats hold far more wealthy districts than Republicans do, but the opinion is that things were and go back to being better if a Democrat is in office to some. (not to start a political debate, just illustrating a point from discussions that I've heard)
Thats one example of a partially informed opinion.
Like I said, I hate rap. Do I have to be a rapper of sorts or lable myself a "producer/CEO" like every other yahoo who buys a sampler from Guitar Center???
No, I just don't like it.
Never tried to rap outside of a sad white "Rapper's Delight"
And thats MY story to stick too!!!!
In response to the original post - I would say that being considered overrated, yet still being a killer player is a discussion that often involves Jaco. Love him or hate him, he was a bass wizard ... to say otherwise is incorrect. But what about a guy like Michael Anthony from Van Halen?
He's (was) a very high profile player that has been continually considered overrated. Yes he was an 'E string bandit' and played pretty simple, but it served the gig perfectly. Now I can't say from any hard knowledge, but I'll bet the guy could play some bass that most of us on TB would acknowledge as top notch. I say this because he could lay it down so well that there has to be some 'real' chops to back it up. He also falls into the Most Underrated category in some circles.
Les Claypool gets lot of overrated sentiment here on TB. However, he is a bass hero to many, got more than a few folks playing bass, and for better or worse, does his thing with a killer feel. He is highly regarded by MTV and Rolling Stone because of his commercial success - this all carries some weight regardless of his technical proficiency.
I would say that Jimi Hendrix accomplished his status in the same manner. He became a guitar god based on his writing, manipulation of sound, and fearlessness. John McLaughlin would blow him away in a technical showdown, but will never get the same props from the music community because he doesn't make that same visceral connection that Jimi did. Not many folks would consider Jimi overrated, but if you microscopically examined his playing it would be full of 'flaws' by textbook standards.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I'll throw it out there.
He's (was) a very high profile player that has been continually considered overrated. Yes he was an 'E string bandit' and played pretty simple, but it served the gig perfectly. Now I can't say from any hard knowledge, but I'll bet the guy could play some bass that most of us on TB would acknowledge as top notch. I say this because he could lay it down so well that there has to be some 'real' chops to back it up. He also falls into the Most Underrated category in some circles.
Les Claypool gets lot of overrated sentiment here on TB. However, he is a bass hero to many, got more than a few folks playing bass, and for better or worse, does his thing with a killer feel. He is highly regarded by MTV and Rolling Stone because of his commercial success - this all carries some weight regardless of his technical proficiency.
I would say that Jimi Hendrix accomplished his status in the same manner. He became a guitar god based on his writing, manipulation of sound, and fearlessness. John McLaughlin would blow him away in a technical showdown, but will never get the same props from the music community because he doesn't make that same visceral connection that Jimi did. Not many folks would consider Jimi overrated, but if you microscopically examined his playing it would be full of 'flaws' by textbook standards.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this but I'll throw it out there.
I'm very familiar with your list but that really is a small list, compared to the long list of bass critics here at TB
I also forgot Paul Schrader (how could I have?), Bertrand Tavernier, Jean-Luc Godard, Paul D. Zimmerman, Richard LaGravenese, Frank S. Nugent. There are many more, and while it may be a small list, some of these names (esp. Schrader, Rohmer, Truffaut and Bogdanovich) are some of the most talented, intelligent filmmakers and critics there have ever been. Their filmmaking and criticism were mutually beneficial to each other.
I think I agree with your point that there are too many armchair critics with no real idea what they're talking about, be it in the field of music or film. These guys are a cut above as critics since they really know what they're talking about and can put their money where their mouths are.
edit: I also forgot Lindsay Anderson. In light of all thise, I would say that MANY film critics have written awesome scripts or directed great films. The combined list is really pretty substantial.
I agree completely. I just wanted to point out that if the critique is not technical, then it is not necessary that the critic have any technical experience.
Clearly, "know what s/he is talking about" encompasses a wide range of possibilities that differ for each reader of the critique. And many critic critiquers are too quick to assume that if they don't agree with the critic, the critic is somehow wrong. A critic can come to different conclusions than me without being a bad critic.
A bassist is overrated once fame extends beyond people who have actually heard the player, the player is overrated (even if they are truly excellent).
