What difference does the 7 make in Cm7 chord?

[sokolasty]

I found this clip on YT about playing a lick in different minor 7 keys, from C to B (or B #)

What is the difference that the 7 in key name makes? The seventh step isn't sharp or flat, it's exactly ten half steps from tonic like in X minor without 7.
What's the point?
Is it about the chord played in background?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Do you understand how chords are constructed? Because the symbol above the staff is not a KEY or a SCALE, it's a chord. And the chord tones are tonic, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, and the dominant/flatted seventh. So what does that mean? C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C. What other scale has those exact notes/pitches? Ab major - Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab, right. That major scale (Ab) has a half step interval between the 7th and the octave, but in the relative minor the interval between the 7th and octave is a whole step, right?
Do you have or have access to a keyboard? The notes outside the chord tones of a triad (tonic, 3rd, and 5th) are generally referred to as chord tensions and they change the sound of the chord. Sit at the keyboard and play a minor triad with C as the root/tonic - C Eb G - as a chord (the notes all at the same time), rather than an arpeggio (the notes one at a time) and LISTEN to that sound. The do it again, adding the dominant 7th (C Eb G Bb) and LISTEN for how that changes the sound of the chord. Then do it again and add the major 7th ( B or C Eb G B) and LISTEN to how that changes the sound of the chord.

 

[Michedelic]

I don’t know if this would help, but from my experience, a “7” chord is to be understood as a minor 7th, a whole step below the octave root, which lends a bluesy flavor to the chord, and also is a tonal leading device to a following IV chord. A major 7th(denoted as ‘maj 7’)has a more pleasant, kind of “aaah” sound.

 

[GretschWretch]

Although I am not sure I understand Ed's explanation completely, I agree with it and see how it works in practice. Those chord tensions beg for relief and, like a suspended chord, usually get resolved within a beat or two. They add a bit of drama to the piece.

If I am playing a Celtic or old timey tune and am in an especially bratty frame of mind, if the chord progression modulates from G major to F major I sometimes will play a D root under the F, effectively changing the F major chord to a Dm7.

 

[GretschWretch]

I don’t know if this would help, but from my experience, a “7” chord is to be understood as a minor 7th, a whole step below the octave root, which lends a bluesy flavor to the chord, and also is a tonal leading device to a following IV chord. A major 7th(denoted as ‘maj 7’)has a more pleasant, kind of “aaah” sound.

A minor seventh chord is for jesters and clowns. A major seventh chord is for dreamers and the broken-hearted, a yearning for completion and closure which never arrives.

 

[bass12]

I found this clip on YT about playing a lick in different minor 7 keys, from C to B (or B #)

What is the difference that the 7 in key name makes? The seventh step isn't sharp or flat, it's exactly ten half steps from tonic like in X minor without 7.
What's the point?
Is it about the chord played in background?

Yes, you're getting confused between the chord the lick is being played over (for example, Fm7) with the key signature (which the video examples don't provide). Think of it this way: the video is demonstrating "the lick" being played over minor 7 chords "in every key". The examples are given using chromatic movement as opposed to, say, following the circle of fifths/fourths.

In any event, it sounds like it would be of benefit to you to learn some music theory.

 

[sokolasty]

@Ed Fuqua

Thank you for your extensive post

I am not sure I got you right, so let me expand my question

1. The lick in the YT clip consists of notes
C D Eb and Bb
2. C minor 7 scale and C minor scale consist of
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
3. The lick fits to C minor 7 and C minor (no 7)

Question
Is my understanding right, when I think the following:
A) When I play chord Cm, I play C Eb G
B) When I play chord Cm7, I play C Eb G Bb

C) When I play a solo/a melody in Cm7 or Cm, I can use notes
C D Eb F G Ab Bb

 

[groooooove]

it's just a tasty little extra Bb. nothing to fuss about.

 

[Pings Bass]

Flavor

 

[Dan1985]

After reading this thread, I can sadly confirm I know nothing about playing any musical instrument whatsoever. But I can see 2 P basses and a Strat from where I’m typing this.

 

[Wyrdlow]

A major 7th(denoted as ‘maj 7’)has a more pleasant, kind of “aaah” sound.

A fiddler I know calls maj7s "flowery, floaty" chords. Seems about right, to be fair.

 

[Wyrdlow]

A minor seventh chord is for jesters and clowns. A major seventh chord is for dreamers and the broken-hearted, a yearning for completion and closure which never arrives.

Awesome.

 

[HolmeBass]

@Ed Fuqua

Thank you for your extensive post

I am not sure I got you right, so let me expand my question

1. The lick in the YT clip consists of notes
C D Eb and Bb
2. C minor 7 scale and C minor scale consist of
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
3. The lick fits to C minor 7 and C minor (no 7)

Question
Is my understanding right, when I think the following:
A) When I play chord Cm, I play C Eb G
B) When I play chord Cm7, I play C Eb G Bb

C) When I play a solo/a melody in Cm7 or Cm, I can use notes
C D Eb F G Ab Bb

There is no such thing as a “C minor 7 scale”. Cm7 is a chord, as Ed pointed out.

The scale you wrote out the notes for is the C natural minor scale.

This is one of the things Ed was trying to correct in your current understanding.

 

[petermwright]

Do you understand how chords are constructed? Because the symbol above the staff is not a KEY or a SCALE, it's a chord. And the chord tones are tonic, minor 3rd, perfect 5th, and the dominant/flatted seventh. So what does that mean? C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C. What other scale has those exact notes/pitches? Ab major - Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab, right. That major scale (Ab) has a half step interval between the 7th and the octave, but in the relative minor the interval between the 7th and octave is a whole step, right?
Do you have or have access to a keyboard? The notes outside the chord tones of a triad (tonic, 3rd, and 5th) are generally referred to as chord tensions and they change the sound of the chord. Sit at the keyboard and play a minor triad with C as the root/tonic - C Eb G - as a chord (the notes all at the same time), rather than an arpeggio (the notes one at a time) and LISTEN to that sound. The do it again, adding the dominant 7th (C Eb G Bb) and LISTEN for how that changes the sound of the chord. Then do it again and add the major 7th ( B or C Eb G B) and LISTEN to how that changes the sound of the chord.

You mean Eb major (not Ab), I take it? Eb major is the relative major of C minor. Not that it makes a difference to the 7th of the Cm7 chord, but just for the sake of correctness.

 

[HolmeBass]

@Ed Fuqua

Thank you for your extensive post

I am not sure I got you right, so let me expand my question

1. The lick in the YT clip consists of notes
C D Eb and Bb
2. C minor 7 scale and C minor scale consist of
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
3. The lick fits to C minor 7 and C minor (no 7)

Question
Is my understanding right, when I think the following:
A) When I play chord Cm, I play C Eb G
B) When I play chord Cm7, I play C Eb G Bb

C) When I play a solo/a melody in Cm7 or Cm, I can use notes
C D Eb F G Ab Bb

To answer your specific questions:

The chord spellings of Cm7 and Cm are correct.

When creating a line or solo over a Cm7 chord using the notes of C natural minor might work, or it might not!

Unfortunately, there is some added complexity with minor keys and minor chords. It turns out that there are three different minor scales: natural, harmonic, and melodic.

It gets pretty murky b/c jazz musicians vs classical will treat the melodic minor differently. The harmonic minor is pretty important because it changes that Bb in C natural minor back to a B; this makes the V7 chord a G7 again, with a much stronger resolution to Cmin than the diatonic Gmin7 has.

So as to the Bb/B question, and to a certain extent also the Ab vs A question (talking about the notes here, not chords) I use my ears. The harmonic analysis of this is something I am still working on internalizing.

As for “the lick”, just try it out in a number of places/chords. In the right kind of tune it will even sound fine over a major chord - it will just sound bluesy.

I will add further to just press the “I believe” button on musical and in particular harmony/theory advice from Ed. He is a recognized expert in this area.

 

[monsterthompson]

I don’t know if this would help, but from my experience, a “7” chord is to be understood as a minor 7th, a whole step below the octave root, which lends a bluesy flavor to the chord, and also is a tonal leading device to a following IV chord. A major 7th(denoted as ‘maj 7’)has a more pleasant, kind of “aaah” sound.

I believe your experience is in line with what’s described in this video, which I found to be very helpful. It covers more than the OP question but I think it’s probably going to provide additional useful tools.

 

[sokolasty]

n any event, it sounds like it would be of benefit to you to learn some music theory.

This is why I keep asking

 

[sokolasty]

Unfortunately, there is some added complexity with minor keys and minor chords. It turns out that there are three different minor scales: natural, harmonic, and melodic.

Rabbit hole, huh?

I will add further to just press the “I believe” button on musical and in particular harmony/theory advice from Ed. He is a recognized expert in this area.

I prefer to understand and believe

Sorry for multiple posts

 

[Michedelic]

All I know is, it puts the foxy into the “Foxy Lady” chord.

 

[HolmeBass]

Rabbit hole, huh?

I prefer to understand and believe

Sorry for multiple posts

Sure, I am not saying not to understand! I am saying you can trust Ed, the occasional typo not withstanding.

The thread title is pretty interesting and I have been thinking about it. I think the inclusion or absence of 7 on a minor chord mostly impact the chording instruments - piano, organ, guitar, etc. However, it will be a very strong indication for bassists to use the Bb and not the B in their lines!

If it is just “Cmin” the correct 7 to use in your riffing / bass line depends on how the Cmin is being used in the chord progression, and this is where trying both ways and using your ears to decide is how I go about it. The lick will work in a lot of places, but not everywhere.