What do more costly basses provide?

[LowMax]

It's a given that you can buy a bass guitar for $100... or $10,000+. But lets say we find some middle ground; $600-$2000 and $2000-$4000. I'm curious as to what you get as as benefit as you move up in price class? And I will stipulate that with a player who earns a living playing bass, price almost doesn't matter because you want the best for your needs, even if the gains for significantly more money brings incremental benefits. But for the rest of us, I'm wondering what would justify spending even $2000 as opposed to $1000 or for some well made budget basses, even $600.

But first, I'd like to take "artistry" off the table. We know that many wooden instruments are genuine works of art and the art should be acknowledged. But I'm just wondering about value and benefit from a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT standpoint. As a brass player I often see top players playing beat-up, Frankenstein mash-ups, playing and sounding terrific.

So if we boil bass guitars down to playability, sound, electronics and finish quality (excluding "works of art"), what drives and average player to pay over $1500 for a quality bass? Let's start there for conversation's sake.

Sorry that you got some wise asses giving you responses because they've got nothing better to add to the conversation. I'm a sixty-year-old multi-instrumentalist who plays guitar bass and drums equally. I've owned some very high dollar instruments and some middle-of-the-road instruments as well. The reality is this, mahogany is mahogany. the pickups actually have more to do with the overall sound of any instrument than just about any other factor. Yes I know that builders would have you believe that all these different factors make their instruments worth thousands upon thousands of dollars. The truth is that just like any other art an instrument is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If you lay down an instrument that is exactly like the one next to it but one's price is $5,000 and the other is $200 people will undoubtedly go for the more expensive one because they think they're getting something greater. I've said this before to many people that I've had this conversation with over the years. I defy you to put on any record from the 1950s until now and then tell me what bass was used. Or guitar or what type of drums set. The reason why you can't tell is because the reality is that sonically you can do so much with EQ and volume knobs there is no distinguishable sound. Think about this, Eddie Van Halen set the guitar world on fire and changed music forever with a guitar he put together with various parts that after he was done probably wasn't worth more than three or four hundred bucks. Musicians make more vanity purchases then maybe anyone else. They wanted to be shinier with better woods and colors. But at the end of the day a base is a base and they all sound basically the same. What you can do with EQ curves is amazing. You can also take an alembic or fodera Bass and EQ it to make it sound like a piece of crap from Walmart.

 

[LowMax]

Craftsmanship
Ergonomics
Tone
Sometimes customization

And I'm not buying into the "all basses are art." Value oriented based are general cookie cutter, assembly line widgets that are at best mediocre in appearance.

Appearance shouldn't have that much to do with it considering that you and your bass spend a large majority of your lives sitting playing in your bedroom. The amount of stage time is so little in the big picture of life that it should be feel and sound that matters more than looks.

 

[sikamikanico]

It's a given that you can buy a bass guitar for $100... or $10,000+. But lets say we find some middle ground; $600-$2000 and $2000-$4000. I'm curious as to what you get as as benefit as you move up in price class? And I will stipulate that with a player who earns a living playing bass, price almost doesn't matter because you want the best for your needs, even if the gains for significantly more money brings incremental benefits. But for the rest of us, I'm wondering what would justify spending even $2000 as opposed to $1000 or for some well made budget basses, even $600.

But first, I'd like to take "artistry" off the table. We know that many wooden instruments are genuine works of art and the art should be acknowledged. But I'm just wondering about value and benefit from a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT standpoint. As a brass player I often see top players playing beat-up, Frankenstein mash-ups, playing and sounding terrific.

So if we boil bass guitars down to playability, sound, electronics and finish quality (excluding "works of art"), what drives and average player to pay over $1500 for a quality bass? Let's start there for conversation's sake.

Playability, then finish quality. With playability I mean ergonomics, setup-ability, and reliability (bass stays playable).

In some cases electronics (like Alembic or Wal), but those can be upgraded and tweaked quite easily.

Sound is a distant fourth, particularly on solid bodies (sound is a complex function that includes the strings and the player). That said, playability can greatly affect the player and, in turn, sound).

 

[RJI777]

I just want to say, I really can’t understand why people feel the need to post “use the search function”. Allow me to explain some of the reasons:

1. Some of the thread topics may be old (as in nothing particularly recent) information. Opinions do change and the passing of time has a way of providing fresh perspective and shaping new thoughts on old subjects.

2. This is a bass forum. How many genuinely new topics do you think can be brought to the table within a given amount of time? There’s only so many bass related topics one can discuss. Topics will invariably repeat after a given time cycle.

3. What’s wrong with bringing the topic back up in the hopes it will generate new responses from users that didn’t have opportunity to chime in (or who weren’t even members) the last time it was asked?

4. Perhaps all the previous posts provided a wealth of information, but not the one specific nugget the poster was after. Starting a new thread allows for the opportunity to actively shape and direct the discussion to meet the posters specific query.

Yes, the search function is useful. I’ll give you that. Sometimes it is indeed all you need, but sometimes it simply isn’t.

If you don’t want to add your thoughts to the discussion, simply move on about your day. I’m quite certain 99% of the people using computers these days knows how to perform a search. Taking on the role of Captain Obvious does nothing to further the discussion.

Just some food for thought.

IMHO, the reasoning regarding your main points seems sound and, although you refer to it as "food for thought", it's still a worthwhile contribution to the discussion. However, there's a sentence in your closing paragraph that concerns me i.e.,

"I’m quite certain 99% of the people using computers these days knows how to perform a search."

To my mind, it seems plausible that the majority of people (at least, in terms of those who use contemporary information technologies), have, at some point, been exposed to the concept of "searching". Indeed, these individuals might even know that a "search engine" is, and, may even have a personal favourite. I'd also concede that, just maybe, many of these people will know how to conduct a basic search.

Unfortunately, experience tells me that this is not enough. Obviously, as bass players, we have this covered, but not necessarily so, the people referred to above. I come across this issue, all too often; and it is this: Just because people are aware of any given concept, process or idea, it doesn't necessarily follow that this will be reflected in their behaviours. Okay; so some folks know how to perform a basic search; that's good, right? But do they expend the time and effort that is sometimes required to perform appropriate investigative searches in an attempt to identify, find, digest, interpret and analyse the information they actually require?; well, based upon what I see, no, they don't. Why?; I don't know; nor do I care that much (after all, it's not for me to tell other people how to live their lives, is it?).

All that said, I do think that it supports the argument that, adding in the "use the search function" concept, every now and then, is a good thing.

Then again, maybe it's just me.

 

[vindibona1]

Sorry that you got some wise asses giving you responses because they've got nothing better to add to the conversation. I'm a sixty-year-old multi-instrumentalist who plays guitar bass and drums equally. I've owned some very high dollar instruments and some middle-of-the-road instruments as well. The reality is this, mahogany is mahogany. the pickups actually have more to do with the overall sound of any instrument than just about any other factor.

That's the thing. I too have a couple $4000 acoustic guitars, have had some custom built trumpets, owned some "higher end" electric guitars. I've modded some less expensive (to down-right dirt cheap)instruments, only to wonder the musical/sonic benefit is. There is a reason why I still own my modded Chibson, but no longer own my Gibson, numbered, limited addition Les Paul. The Chibson played as well or better and sounded as good. As for my $4k acoustics, the sonic value seems to fall off dramatically once you plug them in.

Yes I know that builders would have you believe that all these different factors make their instruments worth thousands upon thousands of dollars. The truth is that just like any other art an instrument is only worth what people are willing to pay for it.

Value and worth is in the eye of the customer. I love wood working, and as a work of art I can appreciate the value of that aspect.

What I was truly looking for were reasons why people elected to spend more money on a bass, and what aspects of that showed enough value to want to lay out that kind of cash? The question wasn't a troll, but an honest question to find out if I was missing something as bass becomes more important to me in the overall scheme of what I do as a musician.

 

[4Stringer1]

This topic must have been brought up by someone new to bass guitars or guitars in general. I don't see a real talking point here! You get what you pay for. Lamborghini vs Prius! It's all about preferences, style, budget and level of skills. When it comes to middle and low end basses, it's simple, modify-modify and modify some more! Play on!!!

 

[Dreamsinger]

Good question. If I had the bucks I could drop $10K+ on a Ken Lawrence in a heartbeat. The reasons why it turns my crank so hard aren't easily quantifiable, maybe even impossible. But it *feels* right, it puts no barriers between itself and what I want to put out there. It's an OMG feeling and the skies open up and the voice of God is emanating from my fingertips. That's a purely subjective thing that you'll never find by any search engine so yeah, referring someone to "Google it" is not just snarky but lazy and passive aggressive. Whether or not my subjective answer is useful to you depends on whether you think I'm FOS or not and if where I'm coming from resonates with you. I can build a bass from parts that will blow the doors off on just about any factory bass for under $2k. What you get for the extra $8K, for lack of a better term, is magic. You don't know why but you'd feel it if you were blindfolded and somebody put it in you hands. So yeah, keep asking questions like this. It gives us a chance to wax poetic on the metaphysical aspects of what we do.

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

What I was truly looking for were reasons why people elected to spend more money on a bass, and what aspects of that showed enough value to want to lay out that kind of cash? The question wasn't a troll, but an honest question to find out if I was missing something as bass becomes more important to me in the overall scheme of what I do as a musician.

OK.

I had the chance to try out a Sterling S.U.B. StingRay 5 last night, which is as close to a direct comparison to my EBMM StingRay 5.

The differences were noticeable the moment I picked up the Sterling.

The neck didn't have the same feel, or even close to the same feel, as my 'Ray 5.

The string spacing, while probably the same, felt narrower. I didn't measure or know the measurements off hand, but it did feel narrower between strings.

When I plugged it in to an Ampeg BA115, the same amp I have at home, the sound was close to a StingRay. It was thinner than that of my 'Ray 5, and that's after adjusting the EQ, both on board the bass and at the amp.

The neck also had a gloss finish. I don't know if this is standard for the Sterling 'Ray models, but my 'Ray 5 has the gunstock oil and wax neck, and they are worlds apart in difference. I would never choose the glossy finish over the gunstock oil and wax.

Which leads me to price.

The Sterling 'Ray was $329 new.

My 'Ray was $2400 or so, new.

Did what I experience last night justify the nearly two grand in cost difference? Yes, to me.

The Sterling wasn't a bad instrument, but it wasn't on par with the USA made EBMM 'Ray. Everything about it felt cheap, not low cost, but like everything came from the lowest quality bidder.

Will the Sterling S.U.B. work for people? Absolutely, it was a very serviceable bass.

But there isn't much chance of one following me home anytime soon.

 

[kevmac]

As with any manufactured product, as the price goes up, you're paying a price to net a profit for the builder who has spec'd better materials and components, and spent more time to get more of the little things 'right-er' and used more skilled / expensive personnel to accomplish this.

And you factor in who and where it was built: Labor rates (and labor laws, environmental regs, etc.) are higher in the 'developed' countries than the rest of the world, and you can almost geographically tag where a given bass was built: Using Fender as an example, their highest selling prices top out in the Custom Shop, then less for regular US production, less for Mexico, and the cheapest for Squiers built in China, Indonesia, or Viet Nam, and you can see that curve in many manufacturers lineups ( . . . and this is why very few 'Japanese' guitar companies sell very few basses . . . . made in Japan, funny innit?).

And economies of scale come into play. The majors like the Fenders, Yamahas, etc., make thousands of instruments, and discounts on that much wood, finish, components, etc. This is a big reason why they offer a lot for less vs. the handbuilt, artisan instruments where a 100 a year (or less . . . ) are always going to be a LOT more expensive: Each handbuilt has to pay for a lot of overhead as there's so relatively few built.

How important this is to you is a personal judgement: Some are happy with a Squier, others would not dream of a non-US-built Fender. But without this global production, the droves of terrific $500 and less budget basses would not be possible.

I will say that I've never seen a time when you really had to work hard to get a truly bad instrument like we are in today. I can easily remember when 'beginner' instruments were rank plywood junk that weren't worth using as kindling wood.

@jwilson hit it square on the head with the comment about having to look far and wide to get a crappy bass even for cheap these days.What one can get for under a grand now was unthinkable back when I was a young player.What Harley Benton offers on the cheap (under $200)as an example is amazing.

 

[amper]

I usually subscribe to the idea that there is no such thing as a silly question, but…

Among similarly situated basses (production models, first world nations), you get what you pay for. When you spend more money, you primarily get better:

1. Wood quality
2. Build quality
3. Electronics quality
4. Hardware quality

All of which means they look better, feel better, play better, and sound better.

I own two professional grade basses: a 2000 Music Man StingRay, and a 2003 Warwick Custom Shop Corvette Proline. Each of these instruments, if purchased new today (if you could purchase them new today), would cost over $2000 USD. My StingRay is a piezo model, which is no longer made, and if you ordered a new Warwick Custom Shop instrument today, it would run you about $4000. Adjusted for inflation, the list price of my bass as I ordered it in December 2002 would be about $4000, in 2020 dollars. Even a standard StingRay will cost you $2100 USD street price, today.

I have never owned anything less than a top shelf bass guitar. My very first bass was a 1992 Fender Jazz Bass Plus V Ash, Fender's top of the line, most expensive production instrument of the era. The US Plus Series was the forerunner of the American Deluxe Series instruments, equivalent to today's Ultra Series. I've also owned two other Ernie Ball StingRays, a 1995 and a 2002. A Fender Jazz Bass Ultra V costs $2100, street price, today.

I've been a musician my entire life, I was in a gigging and recording band for 20 years. I don't need to make excuses to buy a professional level instrument.

 

[amper]

The truth is, an expensive instrument in the hands of a terrible player will sound terrible, and a cheap instrument in the hands of an accomplished player will sound great, though it will never sound as great as an expensive instrument in the hands of an accomplished player.

There is one big advantage of cheaper instruments that are still made well: you worry less about theft and damage.

Over the holiday, I had occasion to stop by a Guitar Center store and test drive a Boss Nextone Stage amp and a Squier J.Mascis Jazzmaster. This is a $500 amp and a $500 guitar. Now, on guitar, I play a $1600 Rickenbacker 330 and a $1700 Mesa/Boogie amp, over three times the cost. And let me tell you, I would have not had a single problem getting on stage with that Nextone and Squier.

My biggest complaint about the Squier was the tuners. I dislike vintage tuners. Otherwise, it was a perfectly competent instrument, aside from it needing better fret dressing. My left hand felt a little abraded from the fret ends.

Hells, my bass pedalboard alone costs more than that Squier and Nextone amp together.

 

[RJI777]

This topic MUST have been brought up by someone new to bass guitars or guitars in general.

Must it? ... well, actually, no ... it's your opinion which, should be respected, ... but it isn't a universal truth, ... there's no must about it.

I don't see a real talking point here! You get what you pay for. Lamborghini vs Prius! It's all about preferences, style, budget and level of skills.

It's also about keeping up with developments in areas such as technology and bass playing in general (to name but a few). In terms of subject matter, these seem to be getting larger and more complicated by the day. I have never met anyone who had all the knowledge required to make an optimal decision when it comes to buying bass gear. But, IMHO, you do what you can, and that can include asking questions akin to this thread.

When it comes to middle and low end basses, it's simple, modify-modify and modify some more! Play on!!!

You know, it's simple for me too. When it comes to [middle and] low end basses, I just pick 'em up and play 'em. I'm told (at least for the main part) that this sounds just fine; so I will keep on playing, and skip the modifications, until I encounter a justifiable reason to do otherwise.

Of course, that's just my opinion. It's valid and reliable, but can I generalise it to other bass players? No, not at all; that would be a pretty dumb thing to do.

 

[Kilgore777]

Status among people who care about such things, and a sense of superiority over those who don't. And warm fuzzies about buying American. If those things are valuable it to you, that's what you get for the extra thousands. I'm not good enough to appreciate any subtle improvements in playability.

Hmmmmm.... not so sure I can completely agree. I own a Fender P/J Frankenbass, a Sire P7, a year 2001 MM Sterling and a MM Stingray Special 4 HH. I waited year to buy "that special bass," (pun intended) the Special, and it was the most expensive bass I have ever owned at $2,300. It is also by far the nicest bass I have ever owned and I seldom play my other basses since I purchased it. The sound quality, finish and hardware are all top notch and I feel like I got what I payed for. Also, it is a really beautiful bass.

So, I am not someone who buys basses for bragging rights or to just feel good about buying American. The price I payed was well worth it IMO for the upgrades (burnt maple neck, 18 volt battery, great light-weight tuners and bridge).

On the other hand, I think I can agree with you that some people probably are buying expensive basses for the wrong reasons. Also, once you get above a certain level, maybe $3-4K+, you fall into the law of diminishing returns.

 

[kesslari]

For me, nothing I've played plays like a StingRay, or offers the same tone and ergonomic combination. I've played Fender, Ibanez, LTD, Rickenbacker, and Warwick. None of those basses had the je ne sais quoi of the 'Ray. At the end of the day, the 'Ray just feels like me when I play it--an extension of my mind and heart.

Sure I could build a frankenbass to get pretty damn close, if not nail the tone and feel exactly.

However, I do not have the skillset to do that one my own, and the cost of having a bass built for me would probably eclipse the sticker price of a new 'Ray on the shelf.

Sounds like you found the right bass for you, and the gamble on a CT would not be worthwhile.
It's really very much like buying a Porsche. There are other cars that will give you close to the same performance (or better) at a lower price. Still, someone has reasons for preferring the Porsche. If too few people did, Porsche would not be in business.

For me - I bought a used Zon. It was within my financial comfort zone, and was an amazing bass. Based on that experience I went out of my financial comfort zone and had Joe Zon build me a custom, which ticks all my (somewhat unusual) boxes and has been my #1 player since it was finished (2011).
I could play a cheaper bass and still sound good. But the Zon is *right* for me.
OTOH, Fodera, say, is outside of my financial comfort zone, and the Fodera's I've played aren't "better" enough for me to go outside it and buy one (plus I haven't bought an expensive bass since the Zon - just a few cheap experiments for other purposes).
But they are within other people's financial comfort zones, and tick their boxes, and thus are "worth" it to them.

 

[kesslari]

That's the thing. I too have a couple $4000 acoustic guitars, have had some custom built trumpets, owned some "higher end" electric guitars. I've modded some less expensive (to down-right dirt cheap)instruments, only to wonder the musical/sonic benefit is. There is a reason why I still own my modded Chibson, but no longer own my Gibson, numbered, limited addition Les Paul. The Chibson played as well or better and sounded as good. As for my $4k acoustics, the sonic value seems to fall off dramatically once you plug them in.



Value and worth is in the eye of the customer. I love wood working, and as a work of art I can appreciate the value of that aspect.

What I was truly looking for were reasons why people elected to spend more money on a bass, and what aspects of that showed enough value to want to lay out that kind of cash? The question wasn't a troll, but an honest question to find out if I was missing something as bass becomes more important to me in the overall scheme of what I do as a musician.

Thanks for clarifying the question.
With the Zon - they have a fretless tone that is pretty unique, and is closest to what I hear in my head.
The composite neck - nobody else does them the same way. There are other graphite-based necks, but not quite the same.
The quality and beauty of the woods used. And the amazing playability. I smile every day when I see it, and smile more when I play it.
Plus the quality and knowledge of the builder, who provided great guidance in choice of woods and flexibility in meeting my design specs, which were different than anything he had built previously. Not radically different, but different, and *right for me*.

I really need someone with better skills to photograph it. But this'll do for now.

 

[Pings Bass]

Hmmmmm.... not so sure I can completely agree. I own a Fender P/J Frankenbass, a Sire P7, a year 2001 MM Sterling and a MM Stingray Special 4 HH. I waited year to buy "that special bass," (pun intended) the Special, and it was the most expensive bass I have ever owned at $2,300. It is also by far the nicest bass I have ever owned and I seldom play my other basses since I purchased it. The sound quality, finish and hardware are all top notch and I feel like I got what I payed for. Also, it is a really beautiful bass.

So, I am not someone who buys basses for bragging rights or to just feel good about buying American. The price I payed was well worth it IMO for the upgrades (burnt maple neck, 18 volt battery, great light-weight tuners and bridge).

On the other hand, I think I can agree with you that some people probably are buying expensive basses for the wrong reasons. Also, once you get above a certain level, maybe $3-4K+, you fall into the law of diminishing returns.

Yeah, I was really talking about the basses above that US production price point: boutique basses. I agree you get some real value in a $2k production bass over the import counterparts. I'm not sure how much of it is in playability and tone. Less and less these days. Are they overall 3 to 8 times more valuable than a Squire/MiM/Tribute/Sterling? Not to me. And yeah, beyond the US production bass price point, I don't think there's any appreciable value in terms of tone and playability, at least for guys at my level. YMMV, of course.

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

Sounds like you found the right bass for you, and the gamble on a CT would not be worthwhile.
It's really very much like buying a Porsche. There are other cars that will give you close to the same performance (or better) at a lower price. Still, someone has reasons for preferring the Porsche. If too few people did, Porsche would not be in business.

For me - I bought a used Zon. It was within my financial comfort zone, and was an amazing bass. Based on that experience I went out of my financial comfort zone and had Joe Zon build me a custom, which ticks all my (somewhat unusual) boxes and has been my #1 player since it was finished (2011).
I could play a cheaper bass and still sound good. But the Zon is *right* for me.
OTOH, Fodera, say, is outside of my financial comfort zone, and the Fodera's I've played aren't "better" enough for me to go outside it and buy one (plus I haven't bought an expensive bass since the Zon - just a few cheap experiments for other purposes).
But they are within other people's financial comfort zones, and tick their boxes, and thus are "worth" it to them.

As much as I want to gamble on the CT--a lot of which is based on looks, though almost as much based on tone--I don't see why I'd spend that kind of money when I could drop only $2400 (compared to about $10k for the CT) and get this:

The perfect compliment to my Chili Red StingRay 5.

Yeah, I'll be going the hot pink route after I get my 50th Anniversary SVT head and 212AV cab.

By the way, that Zon loks T!TS!

 

[dexter3d]

It‘s one of those pointless threads that you can only discuss if you spend more time pooping than playing bass. Gear does not matter. Setup and technique does.

 

[pedroims]

IMO. From 600-$2000 there are noticeable differences. After that, you can find all kind of reasons: From exotic woods to crazy $1000 up charge for custom pickup covers.

 

[vindibona1]

I want to thank the last few replying for thoughtful cogent answers.

One universal truth spoken was that a good bass in unskilled hands will probably sound crappy, and vice versa for a crappy bass in the hands of a skilled player. At this moment I'm not sure where I fall into the crappy/good player equation. Probably somewhere in the middle.

While I've dabbled with modding some lower-end guitars, I believe all the basses I have (except one six string) started as middle-of-the-road. My amp is a modest amp, a G-K MB112; not expensive in the spectrum of prices, but far from bottom-of-the-barrel.

Bass seems to have overtaken my guitar playing in terms of interest and probably enjoyment. I find myself noodling on my guitars, but practicing on my basses.