What do you call it?

[Slade N]

Do you think of a 9th as a 9th or as a 2nd?

I talking about on the gig real world, on the fly application not during sit down home work scholastic harmonic analysis.

It makes more sense to me to think of extensions as the “base” interval (2nd in the example) and not the extension but there might be practical value in thinking of the extension that I am not envisioning….what do ya’ll call it?

 

[J Wilson]

For me, it would be a 9th in the context of a chord or as part of a string of notes in an arpeggiated part, and a 2 if I heard it as a root in a whole chord progression such as the common 1-2-5.

But that's me. A chord with a 9 in it has a unique sound that to me is different than the song moving through a 2 or 2 minor change.

 

[Slade N]

For me, it would be a 9th in the context of a chord or as part of a string of notes in an arpeggiated part, and a 2 if I heard it as a root in a whole chord progression such as the common 1-2-5.

But that's me. A chord with a 9 in it has a unique sound that to me is different than the song moving through a 2 or 2 minor change.

Ok I mostly agree with that, thanks for your reply

 

[CallMeAl]

I suppose I eventually translate things to “base” intervals, or the most basic version of the scale/chord. I do this because I’m always thinking of triad or seventh chord arpeggios; and a 2 is a step away from the 3rd makes more sense to me than a 9 is a step away from the 3rd…

however, the extension numbers are what we see in chord charts, so I also have to keep those up to speed as well.

 

[mambo4]

The correct answer depends on context.

If talking chord tones: Root, 3rd, 5th ,7th ,9th, 11th, 13th
If talking scale degrees: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, octave
If talking chord progressions I, ii, iii, IV, vi, vii(dim)
Modified with ♭ or # as needed

Not too complex.

Of course a spoken English "Five" is ambiguous so I try to clarify "Five chord" or "fifth degree"

 

[Slade N]

The correct answer depends on context.

If talking chord tones: Root, 3rd, 5th ,7th ,9th, 11th, 13th
If talking scale degrees: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, octave
If talking chord progressions I, ii, iii, IV, vi, vii(dim)
Modified with ♭ or # as needed

Not too complex.

Of course a spoken English "Five" is ambiguous so I try to clarify "Five chord" or "fifth degree"

no, not too complex, didn't suggest that it is, just asking for personal usage….it makes more sense to me/my brain to think of the extensions as the base interval, of course I know there are extensions past the octave root moving up….but wonder if there any advantage/function to thinking of them as the extensions instead

 

[sean_on_bass]

there is a reason to call it a 9, particular when speaking with a chord player like a guitarist or keyboardist. If I need a keys player to player a C minor 9, i can't call it a C minor 2 for example because that would indicate a different build for the chord than C minor 9 from bottom note to top note.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Chord movement a II, harmonic addition a 9.

 

[ryco]

Was taught in order to be a ninth chord, or any other extension, the chord has to contain a 7th. Whether or not the bassist plays the 7th.
Otherwise it is a 2.
But if the bassist chooses to play the ninth, or other extension, does not mean the note has to be played an octave+ above the root.

 

[JimmyM]

If you call it a 2nd, that would imply that you’re playing the root, 2nd and 3rd as a cluster, which would sound like like a cluster—— . So as a 9th, it’s placed away from the root, which gives it more room to not interfere yet be impactful.

At least that’s the theory behind it, which we all know is merely a guideline and not law. Inverted chords and judicious application can make for some interesting sounding music, but that’s why I look at the 9th as a 9th and not a 2nd.

 

[Wasnex]

Do you think of a 9th as a 9th or as a 2nd?

I talking about on the gig real world, on the fly application not during sit down home work scholastic harmonic analysis.

It makes more sense to me to think of extensions as the “base” interval (2nd in the example) and not the extension but there might be practical value in thinking of the extension that I am not envisioning….what do ya’ll call it?

Neither/Both.

Common tertian chords are stacked in 3rds: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13. This covers all 7 tones, so no need for higher intervals. AFAIK 10, 12, 14 are not used in chord notation. 9 is more common in tertian chord notation (and often more correct). But if you are playing a walking line, you will most likely treat it as a 2...regardless of how you process it mentally.

You shouldn't treat it any different than spelling the notes of any other chord. Ideally you simply know all of the chord tones cold. Years ago I used to bang on the piano quite a bit...and I always thought 9 chords sounded lovely. Best way to learn is on the piano IMHO.

I'll be candid and admit that my fluency is far from perfect. Sometimes I come across chords and chord combinations that require me to slow down and figure things out, which is much more time consuming than simply knowing the notes cold.

I am reasonably fluent up to 9. When it gets to 11 and 13 I start translating to 4 and 6. Translating is less efficient than knowing it cold....but I haven't worked with 11 and 13 enough to completely memorize. Also when is a #11 really a b5 and when is a b13 really a #5? I am somewhat lost when it gets to this point. My formal education was interrupted before I got into altered harmony.

2, 4, and 6 are used in chord notation. Csus2 C,D,G (none tertian). Sus 4 chords are different than 11 chords and 6 and 6/9 chords are different than 13 chords. I believe 6 and 6/9 are technically add chords...intervals added to tertian chords.

C9 is not the same as C add9 or C add2. C9 is a dominant 7 chord with the 9th added. C add chords do not include the 7th. The difference between C add9 and C add2 could be related to how the chords should be voiced.

 

[Wasnex]

no, not too complex, didn't suggest that it is, just asking for personal usage….it makes more sense to me/my brain to think of the extensions as the base interval, of course I know there are extensions past the octave root moving up….but wonder if there any advantage/function to thinking of them as the extensions instead

IMHO thinking of it as a 9 makes sense when you are building chords in your head and working out the alterations of the extensions....so it may depend on how far plan to go with your learning.

Converting to base interval is an extra step. I think it's natural to do this while learning, but eventually the goal should be to become fluent enough that the extra step is not needed.

Probably easier to achieve this fluency on piano than bass though. When I was in school I learned theory in class, worked it out on piano, and then later translated it to bass. Nice to actually hear the colors of different chord shapes on piano.

 

[Chris Wilke]

Was taught in order to be a ninth chord, or any other extension, the chord has to contain a 7th. Whether or not the bassist plays the 7th.
Otherwise it is a 2.
But if the bassist chooses to play the ninth, or other extension, does not mean the note has to be played an octave+ above the root.

Yep the first part of this is true. Adding the 9 implies the 7th is there too, and it is built on a dominant 7th unless specified otherwise. i.e. you can have C9, Cmaj9, Cmin9. These are each based on C7, Cmaj7, Cmin7.

In comparison a sus2 chord is just a major chord with 2 replacing the root.

Back to the 9: Generally the chord player would (or should!) omit the root in a 9th chord. So a C9 would have the chord player playing E-G-Bb-D (ie C7 without the C, add D), but the bass player would still play the C. Interestingly, this would actually be the same as an E half-diminished (Em7b5) chord, with a C in the Bass (ie Em7b5/C). Easier just to say C9 though!

The second part of what you have above complicates things. I would argue that a 9th/2nd played by the bass on a strong beat actually changes the chord, especially in a lower register. So, using the previous example of a C9 with a D in the bass. It would be D-E-G-Bb-D. On paper its an inversion of Emin7b5, but in reality it would really sound a bit more like D11(b13) (no 7th unless the chord player throws in a C somewhere), all due to the D in the bass.

If all that sounds crazy and unusual -- it is, which is why bass players don't generally emphasize the 2nd or 9th except as a passing note. Throwing in the 9th in an upper register is far safer though, as it sounds more like a chord extension and not a new chord. The ear remembers the root, and the 9 adds color.

That's how I hear it anyway, and I think most of modern theory would agree.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Yep the first part of this is true. Adding the 9 implies the 7th is there too, and it is built on a dominant 7th unless specified otherwise. i.e. you can have C9, Cmaj9, Cmin9. These are each based on C7, Cmaj7, Cmin7.

In comparison a sus2 chord is just a major chord with 2 replacing the root.

Back to the 9: Generally the chord player would (or should!) omit the root in a 9th chord. So a C9 would have the chord player playing E-G-Bb-D (ie C7 without the C, add D), but the bass player would still play the C. Interestingly, this would actually be the same as an E half-diminished (Em7b5) chord, with a C in the Bass (ie Em7b5/C). Easier just to say C9 though!

The second part of what you have above complicates things. I would argue that a 9th/2nd played by the bass on a strong beat actually changes the chord, especially in a lower register. So, using the previous example of a C9 with a D in the bass. It would be D-E-G-Bb-D. On paper its an inversion of Emin7b5, but in reality it would really sound a bit more like D11(b13) (no 7th unless the chord player throws in a C somewhere), all due to the D in the bass.

If all that sounds crazy and unusual -- it is, which is why bass players don't generally emphasize the 2nd or 9th except as a passing note. Throwing in the 9th in an upper register is far safer though, as it sounds more like a chord extension and not a new chord. The ear remembers the root, and the 9 adds color.

That's how I hear it anyway, and I think most of modern theory would agree.

I used to end a song on a E with a 9 in the bass (low E and a F# up high on the G string) and it just sounded lovely. I remember the first time I did it and a trumpet player gleefully turned around and said "ending with a 9th, SO COOL). Use those colors when you think it might work, not to worry what it is called.

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

I guess, on some level, I kind of think of it as the 8va of the II, but if I'm saying it (no matter to whom, but especially my students), it's always a "9".

 

[SteveCS]

In comparison a sus2 chord is just a major chord with 2 replacing the root.

In suspensions (sus2 and sus4) its the 3rd that gets replaced, not the root. The root is required as it is the dissonance of the root and 2 (or 4) together that creates the suspension

 

[Gigas444]

In my experience using the definition 9th, 10th etc is the easiest way to explain the chords/intervals to guitarist and pianist

 

[Lance Bunyon]

A 9th is a 9th and a 2nd is a 2nd. They are an octave apart, not the same note. Not the same mathematical value.

 

[petermwright]

If you call it a 2nd, that would imply that you’re playing the root, 2nd and 3rd as a cluster, which would sound like like a cluster—— . So as a 9th, it’s placed away from the root, which gives it more room to not interfere yet be impactful.

At least that’s the theory behind it, which we all know is merely a guideline and not law. Inverted chords and judicious application can make for some interesting sounding music, but that’s why I look at the 9th as a 9th and not a 2nd.

I disagree - 2nd vs 9th has nothing to do with which octave it’s in (in the context of a chord, that is). A chord voiced C D E G is still Cadd9, even though it’s voiced as a cluster. And a chord voiced C G D could still be described as Csus2.

It’s just convention. Generally, if the chord has a 7th, then you’d use the 9/11/13 rather than 2/4/6. However, the first chord I described above is still usually called Cadd9 rather than Cadd2, so there are exceptions.

 

[petermwright]

A 9th is a 9th and a 2nd is a 2nd. They are an octave apart, not the same note. Not the same mathematical value.

Yeah, in chord voicings that goes out of the window though - they kind of are the same note. In a C9 chord, you’d call the D a 9th, regardless of which octave it’s actually played in.