What’s your point? That some people do like to cluster the 1st, 2nd and 3rd? Gee whiz, I never knew that, but thanks for editing out the rest of my post where I explained that very thing.
Sorry, not in a wee wee sizing contest mood today.
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What do you call it?
- Thread starter Slade N
- Start date
Sorry, not in a wee wee sizing contest mood today.
OMG!! Donald Fagen likes weird chords!!!! Heh. Never would have thought.
Various resources I have reviewed say they are not the same. C9 includes the 7th. C add9 is the triad with only the 9th added...no 7th. C9 is dominant, C add9 may or may not be dominant.
The doesn't necessarily mean when you see a C add9 that C9 was not intended, or that it will not be interpreted as C9, but there does seem to be intent to differentiate between the two.
I think extensions are important to think about when constructing basslines because they can inform us what diatonic passing tones we can use: if there’s an F7b9 chord in a chart I’m going to try to avoid playing any G naturals (and stick to G flats or G sharps) because that clashes with the rest of the harmony. Chromatic passing tones in basslines are important (and do add lots of color), but it’s also important to be able to play “inside” the changes as well.
No, the use of 13 rather than 6 in the chord symbol has nothing to do with which octave you voice it in; the only difference is that 13 denotes the inclusion of the 7th (and optionally the 9th). You can put it at the top, or in the middle, or anywhere (other than as the bass note), and it's still a G13 chord. It doesn't matter what instrument you play it on either (it's not different for piano and guitar). Sure, if you google it you'll see it written with the notes in ascending order - that's the easiest way to conceptualise it. But there is no need to actually perform it that way.
The 9/11/13 thing, as far as chord symbols goes, doesn't imply which octave you play it in in any way at all. It's purely a convention regarding the inclusion of the 7th (and optionally 9th). If G13 is written, you include an F (and an A if you like), but if G6 is written you don't. Which octave you play the 13th (or indeed the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th in) is purely a matter of how you choose to voice the chord.
IMO, if you start to take the 13 to be an indication of where in the chord to voice that note, the logic falls apart somewhat. A 13th above what? The bass note might be played a couple of octaves lower. The actual note that's a literal 13th above the bass note might not even be in your voicing. In my right-hand piano example from the last post, the root wasn't even in the voicing. The G13 voicing could be E F A B, where the 7th, 9th and 3rd are all voiced above the 13th, but it's still G13.
Obviously when it comes to analysing intervals, yes 6th and 13th are an octave apart. What I'm talking about here just applies to chord symbols.
it does, indeed. the 7 in 9/13 chords is always there.
one does write 'C9' and assume that's C7add9, just like jazz musician writes 'Cm' and intends a Cm7 or a Cm9 chord. there's also CMaj9 (that doesn't have a minor seventh, obviously), but it's commonly written just as CMaj.
Ok, but that is how chord symbols work, I didn't invent the system... C D E G is commonly called a Cadd9 chord. Whether you play the D a 2nd above your C or a 9th above is just a matter of how you choose to voice it. It's still called a Cadd9 chord.
I believe, the only reason of this thread is that you still don't understand that it does.
I'm not sure, why you're so resistive understanding such a simple thing, but I give up.
that's how chord notation works, it's basics. even Google and Wikipedia know that.
good luck
Erm, I teach music theory. I have played jazz for many years. Believe me, I know about chord voicing. You're mistaken.
okay, let's step back:
In music theory, a ninth chord is a chord that encompasses the interval of a ninth when arranged in close position with the root in the bass. -- The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians
this is ******** and you know music theory better?
okay, Merriam-Webster then:
ninth chord: a seventh chord with the ninth added : a chord that has an interval of a ninth from its lowest to highest note when in root position
you are correct that it is the same set of notes, but i tend to interpret chords in their "vanilla" non-inverted form from root to top. whether that is the best perspective though i can't say cause i am just a bass player, lol. and of course in execution a piano player is going to voice things in a cool way and not just hammer root position chords for a whole tune.
These are very basic definitions that aid understanding for someone learning this. But it's still a 9th chord, regardless of where you put the 9th (assuming it's not the bass note).
Yep that's cool. As you say, in execution, that is not necessarily the case.
I don't see any contradictions. E3 is the same note as E2, it's E. but it's an octave above.
now re-read the definition regarding the 'interval of a ninth', know what that means?
show me the 13th interval in your G7add6. right, it's not there. so, it's not the G13.
Perhaps the difference is in European VS US interpretation.
In the US:
C7add9 is the same as C9...no need to write the 7 or add. Just write C9.
With this notation (C9) we assumes a dominant 7 chord stacked in 3rds. All intervals are part of the chord up to the highest interval indicated in the symbol. That does not mean you may not omit certain intervals.
Cadd9 has no 7th. Cadd9 is a C Major triad and only the specified interval is added CEGD.
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I'm sorry, but in reality, that definition doesn't apply to the way chords are voiced. Ask any jazz musician. Mark Levine said in that paragraph that the 2nd is the same note as the 9th, etc.
Yes, from the point of view of learning chord theory, it is useful to imagine chords being based on stacking 3rds above the root note. It is a helpful way of thinking of it. But when it comes to actually playing them, it's not necessarily the case. G7add6 is not a chord symbol you're ever likely to see used. Any musician used to reading chord symbols would think it odd to see that written down. I've read many jazz and pop charts, and never once seen it written. G13, however, is commonplace.
I don't know how to say it any other way, the 9th/11th/13th can be voiced in any position (except as the root) and it doesn't change the chord symbol. This convention goes back decades, it's just the way it works! If you like, I can try and find some examples of voicings such as this written in music books with chord symbols written with them to demonstrate it.
Seriously, though, ask any jazz musician. That is how chord symbols work.
In general I agree, but in practice I believe there can be exceptions. I am not saying it's common.
While yall debate octaves
I want to mention that the "even" extensions 10, 12, 14 I practically never encounter.
The only time was in the context of materials explaining major /minor double stops on a bass guitar,
with the root on the E string and the 10th (aka 3rd) on the G.
And 12th / 14th I have never seen in the wild.
I want to mention that the "even" extensions 10, 12, 14 I practically never encounter.
The only time was in the context of materials explaining major /minor double stops on a bass guitar,
with the root on the E string and the 10th (aka 3rd) on the G.
And 12th / 14th I have never seen in the wild.
