What do you call it?

[petermwright]

In general I agree, but in practice I believe there can be exceptions. I am not saying it's common.

Of course, yes, you absolutely can voice them in stacked 3rds.

 

[JimmyM]

Ok, but that is how chord symbols work, I didn't invent the system... C D E G is commonly called a Cadd9 chord. Whether you play the D a 2nd above your C or a 9th above is just a matter of how you choose to voice it. It's still called a Cadd9 chord.

I honestly don’t care. I gave my logic for why I differentiate between the two, end of story.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is the Cadd2 chord:

And here are its inversions:

Here we have the Cadd9 chord:

Are the Cadd9 inversions going to be identical (almost) to the inversions of Cadd2?

 

[primusfan1989]

Its contextual for me in regards to whether it is a suspended 2nd or extension of the 9th. CDG is Csus2, CEGBbD is C9

 

[JRA]

...what do ya’ll call it?

i call them by the extensions used, e.g., C9 = C, E, G, Bb, D. 11th =includes F, 13th = includes A.

i also agree with @petermwright on all counts. i know of no other way, except his. i do not teach theory (except casually, to drummers and horn players ), but i do a lot of arranging, and peter's explanation/POV on the subject is the only way i know.

yay, peter!

 

[petermwright]

Here is the Cadd2 chord:
View attachment 5329612
And here are its inversions:
View attachment 5329613

Here we have the Cadd9 chord:
View attachment 5329614


Are the Cadd9 inversions going to be identical (almost) to the inversions of Cadd2?

I'm saying that Cadd9 and Cadd2 are the same thing. It's possible some people might try to use those chord symbols to indicate which octave to put the D in. If you see both used in the same piece, that might be what the composer intended. I've never seen it done though. I'm used to seeing Cadd9 used to mean the C D E G (for instance) voicing. So I don't really differentiate between the two.

 

[petermwright]

i call them by the extensions used, e.g., C9 = C, E, G, Bb, D. 11th =includes F, 13th = includes A.

i also agree with @petermwright on all counts. i know of no other way, except his. i do not teach theory (except casually, to drummers and horn players ), but i do a lot of arranging, and peter's explanation/POV on the subject is the only way i know.

yay, peter!

Thanks JRA, really glad to have your support

 

[petermwright]

okay, let's step back:

In music theory, a ninth chord is a chord that encompasses the interval of a ninth when arranged in close position with the root in the bass. -- The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians

this is ******** and you know music theory better?

okay, Merriam-Webster then:

ninth chord: a seventh chord with the ninth added : a chord that has an interval of a ninth from its lowest to highest note when in root position

To illustrate the point I was making:

View attachment 5329594

There are also tonnes of examples in this book of 7th chords with no 7th interval in, and rootless voicings where there is no bass note - so the 9th isn’t a 9th above anything, and the 11th isn’t an 11th above anything, etc.

Those definitions you quoted are fine for gaining an understanding of how these chords are built, but their use in real life (which is what the OP was asking about) is a lot more fluid. So jazz musicians will describe an E in the context of a G7 chord as a 13th, regardless of where the 7th is, and regardless of whether there is a G a 13th below it. I speak from experience. And I have been teaching theory for well over 10 years.

 

[JRA]

glad to have your support

it looked like prodrome to a pile-on! but TBH, easy for me = i know of no other way!

and as you've already indicated: makes no difference how it's voiced (except to the arranger or the player). because i'm not the piano wiz i'd like to be, i'll often voice the changes one way to hear what i need to hear, and then voice a different way when i go about committing the arrangement, say for horns/sections.

 

[petermwright]

To the OP - I'm so sorry to have turned your thread into an argument. My answer to the original question:

It depends heavily on context. In describing a melody I'd more likely use 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc, although I might use 9th etc if warranted - e.g. if a melody has a wide range, or contains a leap of a 9th or something. In describing intervals I'd use the correct term, i.e. 2nd for C and D when they're next to each other, and 9th for when they're separated by an octave. In the context of the bass, for instance, 10ths are not uncommon (e.g. playing C on the E string and an E on the G string together at the same time), and I'd call it a 10th.

In the context of chord movement, then it's always the lower number (e.g. chord 2, chord 4 - never chord 9 or 11). However, in the context of the extensions of the chord, then it's whatever convention dictates - 9th/11th/13th for a chord with a 7th, and so on. And this is regardless of whatever the actual interval is.

 

[Pocket Dave]

My own not-that-special way of thinking: 2's a note in a progression; 9's a spice in the spice rack.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I'm sorry, but in reality, that definition doesn't apply to the way chords are voiced. Ask any jazz musician. Mark Levine said in that paragraph that the 2nd is the same note as the 9th, etc.

Yes, from the point of view of learning chord theory, it is useful to imagine chords being based on stacking 3rds above the root note. It is a helpful way of thinking of it. But when it comes to actually playing them, it's not necessarily the case. G7add6 is not a chord symbol you're ever likely to see used. Any musician used to reading chord symbols would think it odd to see that written down. I've read many jazz and pop charts, and never once seen it written. G13, however, is commonplace.

I don't know how to say it any other way, the 9th/11th/13th can be voiced in any position (except as the root) and it doesn't change the chord symbol. This convention goes back decades, it's just the way it works! If you like, I can try and find some examples of voicings such as this written in music books with chord symbols written with them to demonstrate it.

Seriously, though, ask any jazz musician. That is how chord symbols work.

QFT. This is how this stuff works. The chord names with numerals, beyond specifying (usually) the lowest note of the chord and the component chord tones, don't tell you in what order the chord tones are used in the various voicings. If they did, there would be far fewer voicing options for chords than there in fact are.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I'm saying that Cadd9 and Cadd2 are the same thing. <snip> So I don't really differentiate between the two.

I don't either, as a rule. I've seen them both many times, and it doesn't really matter. The more important issue is not to confuse either one of them with Csus2. I slightly prefer Cadd9 to Cadd2 when I chart things, and one reason is to make it less likely that someone will just see the 2 in Cadd2 and mistakenly think I mean Csus2.

 

[petermwright]

I don't either, as a rule. I've seen them both many times, and it doesn't really matter. The more important issue is not to confuse either one of them with Csus2. I slightly prefer Cadd9 to Cadd2 when I chart things, and one reason is to make it less likely that someone will just see the 2 in Cadd2 and mistakenly think I mean Csus2.

Yep, completely agree.

 

[Rib 13]

For me, it's context: if a root/3rd/fifth/seventh/nine is present, i call it some type of "9" chord.......if root/3rd/fifth/nine are present with no seven, I call it an add9......if there is a 3rd and 5th, and the second is substituting for the root, I call it a sus2 ( hence, the suspension)

Edit: that's how I always understood it and communicated

 

[retslock]

I didn’t vote because I use both at times.
On bass it’s 9th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, octave, 10th, 11th, 13th.
Otherwise context determines nomenclature. A 3rd and a 10th sound different as do a 2nd and a 9th. Context determines. A G/A chord is technically a G triad with the 2nd as the bass note but in application it becomes an A Dominant chord (11th).

 

[retslock]

I used to end a song on a E with a 9 in the bass (low E and a F# up high on the G string) and it just sounded lovely. I remember the first time I did it and a trumpet player gleefully turned around and said "ending with a 9th, SO COOL). Use those colors when you think it might work, not to worry what it is called.

I’ve been doing this on one of our original tunes that ends on Am. I play the open A string with an E and a B on the 14th and 16th frets. It sounds so nice.

 

[Quentin MCB]

Like retslock I didn't vote because the choice is too restricted.

For chords extensions I use only the odd numbers above 7. (So 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13)

For scale degrees, especially when conceptualising a melody relatively to its key, I tend to use number between 1 and 7, except if the melody is clearly an arpeggio in 3rds. For example Love You Madly is "6 5 3 1, 2 3 5down".

When talking about particular intervals, in arranging for example, I will use the exact number up to 16. For example it I want a 10th between two voices in an arrangement, that's precisely it, not a 3rd. Same for 12th vs 5th. Although I sendom encounter these use cases.

 

[Quentin MCB]

To illustrate the point I was making:

View attachment 5329594
View attachment 5329708

There are also tonnes of examples in this book of 7th chords with no 7th interval in, and rootless voicings where there is no bass note - so the 9th isn’t a 9th above anything, and the 11th isn’t an 11th above anything, etc.

Those definitions you quoted are fine for gaining an understanding of how these chords are built, but their use in real life (which is what the OP was asking about) is a lot more fluid. So jazz musicians will describe an E in the context of a G7 chord as a 13th, regardless of where the 7th is, and regardless of whether there is a G a 13th below it. I speak from experience. And I have been teaching theory for well over 10 years.

I support you also. It was quite unsettling to read that argument.. like don't tell trained jazz musicians that have been studying and playing for years that they are wrong because the first result of Google gives you a quick and simplified explanation of the concept.

I reassure you this it not a Europe vs US thing. We read from the same charts than you, we have the same cracked PDF of the real book, and the scores and books are not reedited for Europe. We may orally use different terminology, but we read the same stuff.

However maybe this is a "genre" thing rather than localisation.. but I don't know what music genre uses 13th chords notated as such except jazz

 

[Aloe]

To illustrate the point I was making

uhm, so it's G Db E Bb (it should be b somewhere on the clef) marked as C7b9?

this notation does make some sense and it's a nice chord of three tritones, thanks for such a nice example!
I'd write it as Gdim tho.