What do you call it?

[the_Ryan]

uhm, so it's G Db E Bb (it should be b somewhere on the clef) marked as C7b9?

this notation does make some sense and it's a nice chord of three tritones, thanks for such a nice example! I'd write it as Gdim tho.

The notation in the piano part is just a possible way to voice a C7(b9) chord. It’s not uncommon in a jazz setting for chordal instruments (i.e. piano, guitar, vibes) to omit the root or even the fifth (especially if it’s a natural fifth or there’s a b13 in the chord) entirely in chord voicings, particularly when chords have a lot of extensions. Roots and fifths aren’t particularly colorful, so as long as someone (read: the bassist) is sticking to them for the most part that frees up whoever’s comping to play more interesting voicings. This is very different from various pop genres, folk traditions, musical theater, and even the continuo in baroque music where chordal instruments are often playing the roots in their chord voicings.

In big band horn arrangements, unless there’s a root in the melody, it’s common to avoid roots in all of the voices except for bass trombone and/or bari sax.

 

[petermwright]

uhm, so it's G Db E Bb (it should be b somewhere on the clef) marked as C7b9?

this notation does make some sense and it's a nice chord of three tritones, thanks for such a nice example!
I'd write it as Gdim tho.

Ok yeah, so in isolation it’s the same as a Gdim7 chord. It’s exactly as the_Ryan said - it’s common in jazz for the chord instrument to leave out the root and/or 5th. The assumption is the bass player has the root covered. The same chord cluster can be used for several different chords depending on the bass note. That G13 voicing I gave (B E F A) could also be Db7alt (or Db7#9#5 to be more specific) or Dm6/9. What’s also normal in jazz is to add these extensions even when they’re not written. Thus, that chord voicing could also be appropriate when the chord symbol is just Dm or G7. That’s a jazz thing really though - in a pop/rock context I would tend to just stick to the extensions included in the chord symbol.

 

[Groove Master]

Make sure that if you see a b9 don't play a major second

 

[SteveCS]

Make sure that if you see a b9 don't play a major second

That's a recipe for Stink-Eye, if ever there was one!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm saying that Cadd9 and Cadd2 are the same thing. It's possible some people might try to use those chord symbols to indicate which octave to put the D in.

Currently, I'm listening to a very energetically-flowing track, "When Weasels Fly" from
The Jakob Manz Project

The keyboard chords in Intro - without the bass - sound like
Cmaj7sus2(add9) - simplified as Cmaj7sus2 and Fmaj7sus2 - simplified as Fmaj7sus2/C.

With the bass playing note, A, that chord of Cmaj7sus2(add9) changes to (probably) Amin11(no5).
The composer wanted to hear that "cluster" of C and D together for Amin11(no5), and
E-F-G close together in Fmaj7sus2.
My naming/notation of Amin11(no5) is (probably) not correct for the piano/keyboard player

 

[Whousedtoplay]

2's a note in a progression;

Where does that 2nd progress?
What's in the future for that 2nd?

 

[petermwright]

Currently, I'm listening to a very energetically-flowing track, "When Weasels Fly" from
The Jakob Manz Project

The keyboard chords in Intro - without the bass - sound like
Cmaj7sus2(add9) - simplified as Cmaj7sus2 and Fmaj7sus2 - simplified as Fmaj7sus2/C.

With the bass playing note, A, that chord of Cmaj7sus2(add9) changes to (probably) Amin11(no5).
The composer wanted to hear that "cluster" of C and D together for Amin11(no5), and
E-F-G close together in Fmaj7sus2.
My naming/notation of Amin11(no5) is (probably) not correct for the piano/keyboard player

View attachment 5330376

Ok, so Fmaj7sus2 is more complex than it needs to be and an add9 on that is certainly redundant. I would call that one C/F. Alternatively you could go with Fmaj9(no 3rd). The other one is Am11.

In my view, if you’re wanting to be very specific about voicings, then chord symbols are not going to give you that. The purpose of a chord symbol is to tell you which chord to play, but not exactly how to voice it - that’s what the notation is for. If you’re writing chord symbols, the implication is that someone is going to read them and play them - and voice them how they choose. If you want them to voice it a particular way, write the notation and don’t bother with the chord symbol. If you want to write the chord symbol too, then I would just call those Am11 and C/F. Trying to put all that detail in the chord symbol makes for awkward chord symbols that are not so easy to read.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Ok, so Fmaj7sus2 is more complex than it needs to be and an add9 on that is certainly redundant. I would call that one C/F. Alternatively you could go with Fmaj9(no 3rd). The other one is Am11.

For a bass player, there is almost no difference between Fmaj9(no3rd) and Fmaj7sus2 (Usually, we don't play chords.)
For a guitar player - due to the specifics of the instrument - maybe, there is some difference, but...
The key/piano player must recognize that difference.
The harmonic sound/flavor is different of those two, kind of similar, chords.
If a composer/arranger wants to hear that "mu-cluster" chord, then, Fmaj9 or Amin11(no5) does not work.
(From the same track.)
Further in Intro, we have a borrowed chord.
I called it Fmin11(no5) but my naming does not place together those clusters.

 

[petermwright]

For a bass player, there is almost no difference between Fmaj9(no3rd) and Fmaj7sus2 (Usually, we don't play chords.)
For a guitar player - due to the specifics of the instrument - maybe, there is some difference, but...

I really think there is literally no difference, regardless of which instrument you’re playing on. Both symbols mean the notes F G C E - in any order (provided F is in the bass). They are literally the same. Except that Fmaj9(no 3rd), IMO is more standard, and so easier to read quickly.

The key/piano player must recognize that difference.
The harmonic sound/flavor is different of those two, kind of similar, chords.

They’re not kind of similar, they’re identical. Aside from the bass note, chord symbols generally imply nothing about what order the notes are arranged in.

If a composer/arranger wants to hear that "mu-cluster" chord, then, Fmaj9 or Amin11(no5) does not work.

If the composer wants to hear a particular cluster, then no chord symbol will get them that. That’s not what chord symbols are for. Notation is for that.

(From the same track.)
Further in Intro, we have a borrowed chord.
I called it Fmin11(no5) but my naming does not place together those clusters

No, because chord symbols don’t do that. They’re not that specific, and they’re not supposed to be.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I really think there is literally no difference, regard of which instrument you’re playing on. Both symbols mean the notes F G C E - in any order (provided F is in the bass). They are literally the same. Except that Fmaj9(no 3rd), IMO is more standard, and so easier to read quickly.



They’re not kind of similar, they’re identical. Aside from the bass note, chord symbols generally imply nothing about what order the notes are arranged in.



If the composer wants to hear a particular cluster, then no chord symbol will get them that. That’s not what chord symbols are for. Notation is for that.



No, because chord symbols don’t do that. They’re not that specific, and they’re not supposed to be.

I wish I could double-like this. We really don't need to tie ourselves in knots trying to make chord symbols do what they can't do and were never designed to do. That effort just multiplies difficulty to no practical purpose.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I wish I could double-like this. We really don't need to tie ourselves in knots trying to make chord symbols do what they can't do and were never designed to do. That effort just multiplies difficulty to no practical purpose.

My question was more about "properly written chord nomenclature."

From the same track, we have a cadence, but I don't know how to properly notate it.
In the key of A minor, we have borrowed chords (with slash):
Amaj9(no3)/F# and Bsus2/G#.
How would you rename them?
Thank you.

 

[petermwright]

My question was more about "properly written chord nomenclature."

From the same track, we have a cadence, but I don't know how to properly notate it.
In the key of A minor, we have borrowed chords (with slash):
Amaj9(no3)/F# and Bsus2/G#.
How would you rename them?
Thank you.

F#m11 and G#m11.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

No, because chord symbols don’t do that. They’re not that specific, and they’re not supposed to be.

I think you've answered the OP's question.
Thank you.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

F#m11 and G#m11.

My Amaj9(no 3rd)/F# is (ascending) F#(bass) - A - B - E - G#
Maybe, F#min11 (no5)?

Bsus2 as B C F# and the bass note, G#.

Maybe, G#min11(no3, no7)?

 

[petermwright]

My Amaj9(no 3rd)/F# is (ascending) F#(bass) - A - B - E - G#
Maybe, F#min11 (no5)?

Bsus2 as B C F# and the bass note, G#.

View attachment 5330473

Maybe, G#min11(no3, no7)?
View attachment 5330483

You don't need the (no5) bit - the 5th is optional anyway. The G#m11 chord does have the 3 (B) and the 7 (F#). So it's just F#m11 and G#m11. Omitting the 3rd in a chord symbol, by adding (no 3rd) is definitely a thing, but you don't really need to do that with the 5th. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a time when you'd want to explicitly omit anything except the 3rd. There might be others though.

EDIT: One thing I'd add - if you ever find yourself putting (no 3, no 7) in a chord symbol, it's highly likely that you haven't named it right in the first place. The 3rd and 7th are kind of the most important notes, so if you're omitting those, it's a different chord.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

My Amaj9(no 3rd)/F# is (ascending) F#(bass) - A - B - E - G#
Maybe, F#min11 (no5)?

Bsus2 as B C F# and the bass note, G#.

View attachment 5330473

Maybe, G#min11(no3, no7)?
View attachment 5330483

Peter's explanation was simpler and more useful. Again, this is more complicated than it needs to be. First, when you see a chord symbol, you don't always have to play every single note in the chord. It's not uncommon to leave the 5 out of a chord (if it's a regular perfect 5), because doing so doesn't change the character of the chord a lot as a rule, and you might "hear" it in a way even if it's not there. That is, it's not being specifically excluded, as if it's unwanted; it's being omitted because it's not specifically needed and, depending on various factors, may not be convenient for that player to play right at that point. And it doesn't necessarily mean it would be wrong for one of the other players to hit that 5. So the "no 5" is unnecessary in a lot of cases, and even potentially misleading.

Second, that G#m11 chord does in fact have the 3 (B) and the 7 (F#); what it doesn't have is the 9 (A#), which in practice isn't always felt to be essential in a m11. In that voicing of G# B C# (not C) F#, the 5 is also omitted, but that's not necessarily an issue, for the reasons above.

 

[petermwright]

Peter's explanation was simpler and more useful. Again, this is more complicated than it needs to be. First, when you see a chord symbol, you don't always have to play every single note in the chord. It's not uncommon to leave the 5 out of a chord (if it's a regular perfect 5), because doing so doesn't change the character of the chord a lot as a rule, and you might "hear" it in a way even if it's not there. That is, it's not being specifically excluded, as if it's unwanted; it's being omitted because it's not specifically needed and, depending on various factors, may not be convenient for that player to play right at that point. And it doesn't necessarily mean it would be wrong for one of the other players to hit that 5. So the "no 5" is unnecessary in a lot of cases, and even potentially misleading.

Second, that G#m11 chord does in fact have the 3 (B) and the 7 (F#); what it doesn't have is the 9 (A#), which in practice isn't always felt to be essential in a m11. In that voicing of G# B C# (not C) F#, the 5 is also omitted, but that's not necessarily an issue, for the reasons above.

Yep, exactly this ^^^!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Second, that G#m11 chord does in fact have the 3 (B) and the 7 (F#); what it doesn't have is the 9 (A#), which in practice isn't always felt to be essential in a m11

That was my typo about that B note.

And it doesn't necessarily mean it would be wrong for one of the other players to hit that 5. So the "no 5" is unnecessary in a lot of cases, and even potentially misleading.

Sometimes, it could be misleading, sometimes, it's a must.
See the specific track from my postings.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

You don't need the (no5) bit - the 5th is optional anyway.

From my quoted track, the chord-harmonic "tone" has a "template" of omitting that 5 on the regular basis.
One of my biggest pet-peeves is when someone tries to improve those carefully selected chords by changing the chord voicing.
I know it's OK for numerous people, but I'm slightly picky about it.

so if you're omitting those, it's a different chord.

And that was my question about properly naming it - Bsus2/G#.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Sometimes, it could be misleading, sometimes, it's a must.
See the specific track from my postings.

I try not to deal in absolutes, because it's difficult to rule out the possibility of some exception somewhere completely, but IME it's almost never, if ever, a "must." I saw what you posted, and I still think that "no 5" is unnecessary. Certainly not a must.