If you call it a 2nd, that would imply that you’re playing the root, 2nd and 3rd as a cluster, which would sound like like a cluster——.
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What do you call it?
- Thread starter Slade N
- Start date
Agree - 'add2' conventionally is a basic triad, incluidng the 3rd and with a 2nd in there somewhere (clustered or not), 'add9' instructs inclusion of a 7th as well as the 3rd and 2nd (in any reasonable voicing), whereas 'sus2' and 'sus4' omit the 3rd entirely. See this from Kate Bush's Cloudbusting:
That isn’t what I was saying, I was saying add9 and add2 are the same. I just see it called add9 more often than add2. If it has a 7th, then it’s C9 (or Cmaj9 depending on the type of 7th) not Cadd9.
Yes, on second thought that makes perfect sense, and mea culpa. I guess the point I was trying to make (without the added complication of the 7ths) was that Add2 and Add9 have the basic triad including the 3rd which it is not in the case for the sus2. Thankfully we never see sus9 or sus11 (yet!!). But thanks for the call-out.
It’s been so long since I studied this sort of thing so long ago I don’t remember what to call it, but I’m pretty sure I know how to playing it when needed LOL!!!
i think the funny part is this idea that there must be a difference between "sit down harmonic analysis" and real-world music making. the more i've studied music, the more i've learned they're the same thing.
so the 'scholarly' answer is that this interval really does depend on context. a 2nd actually does feel / sound quite different than a 9th. whether or not that difference matters in a given situation, determines what you call it.
if something is labeled as a 2nd, it should be played that way almost certainly. 9ths, especially as you get higher in register, can be voiced as 2nds and be really effective.
now, to your point, if your just trying to rock and thinking of it a particular way works for you, that's totally fine. but there's a certain amount of objectivity to the answer that in a given situation, one or the other will be correct / incorrect.
so the 'scholarly' answer is that this interval really does depend on context. a 2nd actually does feel / sound quite different than a 9th. whether or not that difference matters in a given situation, determines what you call it.
if something is labeled as a 2nd, it should be played that way almost certainly. 9ths, especially as you get higher in register, can be voiced as 2nds and be really effective.
now, to your point, if your just trying to rock and thinking of it a particular way works for you, that's totally fine. but there's a certain amount of objectivity to the answer that in a given situation, one or the other will be correct / incorrect.
My personal usage is weighted toward communicating musical ideas most clearly to other musicians
So I favor terms which experience has shown me most musicians understand and use
At first learning I certainly wondered "why bother call it a 9th if it's the 2nd"
But over time I found the important thing to keep in mind is when it's seen as a 9th and not a 2nd.
Context determines the correct terminology
As a bassist, I generally pay little attention to chord extensions past 7 - even the 7s are limited as usable as a bassline unless it's in passing. And a passing tone can be anything, so stuff above 7ths are simply passing tones. I'm not saying I never use tones outside of 1,3,5,7 - I can think of one song off the top of my head that I do feature the 9th - it's just unusual. I can't think of any instance where I use anything above that, at least not knowingly (ie passing tones might happen to be 11ths or 13ths).
But, I will admit to doing octave transpositions ("2 for 9", as OP suggests), to make it easier to identify which note that extension refers to when I want to know. 9ths come pretty easy, but when you get into 13ths and such, it's starts getting muddy - too much math on the fly.
IMO, use whatever method you need to understand what you're trying to do, so long as you can communicate with other musicians.
But, I will admit to doing octave transpositions ("2 for 9", as OP suggests), to make it easier to identify which note that extension refers to when I want to know. 9ths come pretty easy, but when you get into 13ths and such, it's starts getting muddy - too much math on the fly.
IMO, use whatever method you need to understand what you're trying to do, so long as you can communicate with other musicians.
Re: I think the funny part is this idea that there must be a difference between "sit down harmonic analysis" and real-world music making. the more i've studied music, the more i've learned they're the same thing.
…. I dont have that knowledge or experience to be on the same page, thus my question
so the 'scholarly' answer is that this interval really does depend on context. a 2nd actually does feel / sound quite different than a 9th.
….can you expand on that?
if something is labeled as a 2nd, it should be played that way almost certainly. 9ths, especially as you get higher in register, can be voiced as 2nds and be really effective.
….can you expand on that?
now, to your point, if your just trying to rock and thinking of it a particular way works for you, that's totally fine. but there's a certain amount of objectivity to the answer that in a given situation, one or the other will be correct / incorrect.
….ok thanks
…. I dont have that knowledge or experience to be on the same page, thus my question
so the 'scholarly' answer is that this interval really does depend on context. a 2nd actually does feel / sound quite different than a 9th.
….can you expand on that?
if something is labeled as a 2nd, it should be played that way almost certainly. 9ths, especially as you get higher in register, can be voiced as 2nds and be really effective.
….can you expand on that?
now, to your point, if your just trying to rock and thinking of it a particular way works for you, that's totally fine. but there's a certain amount of objectivity to the answer that in a given situation, one or the other will be correct / incorrect.
….ok thanks
as a 9th. that's like a 2nd, but octave up. that is basically: you have a chord in octave down, and an extension (9/13/whatever) octave higher.
let's take a 13 chord, not 9, for illustration. a G13 isn't a G6, it's a G7 with a 6th octave above.
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But the 6th doesn’t have to be played an octave above. A standard right hand piano voicing for G13 is B E F A. The 13th (6th) being below the 7th.
I think of a 9th as a 9th and a 2 as a 2 chord. I don't know quite how to explain it other than the fact that I use both for different purposes. If I want to play a 9th I play it an octave above 2nd unless a 9th chord is written in the chart, not as a superscript extension.
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it actually has, the 13th instead of 6th means exactly this.
to be frank, I'm not educated in piano, but two first links in Google for 'G13 piano' gave me exactly the 13th voicing, not the 6th.
I've never seed '13' or '9' mean '6' or '2' in guitar chords for sure, it's always the next octave, just as notation suggests.
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Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I get what you're driving at; I often think of the sixth and a minor third below the root. That said, playing root and second together sounds dissonant to my ears, while root and ninth sounds "different" but OK.
Depends on the context. If I'm talking to other players that primarily play harmonic instruments i.e. guitar, piano, etc, I usually say "9th." If it's a non-harmonic instrument and I'm referring to a bassline or melodic line, I would probably say "2nd."
It depends on the context of how the note is used. Almost 99% of the time, it's a 9th in some extended chord. Occasionally, and almost never on bass, you'll find a close voiced cluster chord that uses a 2nd. But I don't play piano, so I don't see that really ever.
