What do you do when you're flying blind?

[JenderBazzFass]

(was going to post this in the P&W thread but it looks like that one got locked)

I am playing at church and have been for a few years now. We've got a solid team on the stage, but in the sound booth we have a revolving cast of people with varying skill levels. It can range from someone who's really great to someone who struggles with getting all the lines muted or unmuted when they should be. (There was a time recently when I was muted through the whole second set and it wasn't noticed, nor could I get his attention.)

We use IEMs and I can make my own mix and I sound good to those on the stage, I often get compliments on the tone in the monitor mix... but what is heard of the bass in the house is often random. Sometimes good, sometimes just barely there or nothing audible at all.

How do you experienced players handle situations like this? I obviously need to EQ to make it easiest for my sound to get through, but how would you set up for situations where you may not be getting through, or may not be mixed well? I'm almost always playing my good old AVRI P-bass, nothing unusual about my setup. We are not a big church and it's all volunteers, and there's not really any way to count on who's going to be back there one week to the next.

How would you set up your sound on your board, how would you provide kind and friendly advice to a sound guy who may not know much about live sound, etc. ?

 

[JonathanPDX]

The question I'd ask is: Do I need to address this as a systemic issue, or am I only concerned about my instrument and not necessarily improving the mix or overall quality of the rest of the performance?

If it's just about you the easiest solution is to mix from the stage and adjust your own instrument/amplifier volume to set it where it needs to be no matter what is going on at the board. Or you could put markers on the board, designate the bass channel, and tape a sign there that says "Leave these settings as marked."

If you want to address the entire situation then it's probably ideal to talk with whoever is in charge and set some expectations. It could be some classes for everyone who wants to run the board, or establishing a rotation of only those who have the requisite skill level to actually do the job. Those who can't keep up could have the opportunity to observe and assist to learn how it works before being allowed to fly solo.

In any case, being professional, friendly, and approaching it as problem solving rather than an issue of the individual people will get you the best results. Make it clear your goal is the best performance and sound possible, and all you want to do is make it consistently good for the audience. Pick up a box of donuts on your way there if you have to talk it over with the team, especially if there's a chance someone might feel called out or excluded. Food always makes people lower their guard.

 

[Wasnex]

If you want to control the sound in the house, volunteer to be the audio tech.

If you want to play bass, then you may be able to control what you hear on stage to some extent, but you shouldn't generally try to control the sound delivered to the audience. If you can control what you hear on stage, you need to understand how your signal path works and if your adjustments have an impact on other mixes that include bass.

I don't think it's really reasonable to try and compensate for incompetent audio techs. Play well and make sure they get a signal that is easy to work with. Other than that, try to stay out of their way Re: "Too many cooks in the kitchen."

You may be able to help an audio tech providing there is time and you can actually go out to the mixing board to hear the bass. But IMHO the efficacy of doing this is not as high as you might think. First, the way you perceive sound when you play bass is different than when you listen casually. Perhaps a way to overcome this would be to use a looper to lay down a track and then go out to the mix position to work on your sound. But even this is not perfect because the way bass sounds when you play by yourself doesn't typically work very well in a full band mix.

I used to mix sound from the stage. We had a long sound check where I dialed in the mix from in front of the band. After I dialed in everyone else, I went onstage, picked up my bass, and the keyboard player went out to the mixer to dial me into the mix. Final step was to move the mixer on stage and dial in my monitor mix. This is by no means as good as having a competent, dedicated audio tech...but it could be better than working with various incompetent techs.

 

[JenderBazzFass]

If you want to control the sound in the house, volunteer to be the audio tech.

If you want to play bass, then you may be able to control what you hear on stage to some extent, but you shouldn't generally try to control the sound delivered to the audience. If you can control what you hear on stage, you need to understand how your signal path works and if your adjustments have an impact on other mixes that include bass.

I'm not interested in people hearing me or noticing me, I just notice when I'm not playing that you sometimes can't hear any bass out in the seats, and I've heard others say the same a few times when I am playing.

My only motivation is producing the best sound we can produce, and I wonder how others approach that. Thank you for your comments.

 

[MonetBass]

We have a similar problem at the church where I play. One tech is very good and knows the system backwards and forwards. The other, not so much. In fact, the mix can vary wildly from week to week. He doesn't understand the difference between gain and volume, and tends to use the streaming mix as a monitor. Ugh. The P&W leader knows this, but with a shortage of techs, you have to deal with it sometimes. The leader has had the knowledgeable tech have a conversation with the weaker tech, but to no avail. *sigh*

 

[KevInDaBassment]

If this is anything like the churches I've played in, these aren't people asking to run sound, they are people being asked to run sound. Hence the quandary of the OP. Any time spent could be pointless since next month or next week could be someone different with zero experience.

IME a "Cheat Sheet" or 1-pager that's laminated could help along with some labeling on the board worked best. Have everyone spend some time together with a competent audio tech and get a baseline mix worked out, then anyone who will be filling in gets a quick rundown on muting mics and perhaps adjusting the MASTER Volume. Even if you have a great Tech up there, it may be best to not have them do any tweaking past the baseline mix.

We were lucky to have anyone up there at all, and relied on people muting themselves and mic switches to get by. With some well-done instructions, you guys should be able to get by fine. Just remember why you're there to begin with!!

 

[ColonelZulu]

The sound going to the house is the sound engineer’s responsibility. You send him a good signal and let him deal with it.
If you’re really concerned, ask the others you play with or someone in the audience. Get a recording of it. Get one from the audience over a mic and one from the board.

If it really sucks, everyone will agree.
More than likely, nobody will really care…even if you think it’s horrible.

So, talk to him outside of the event context.
Settle on a mix and save it.

 

[GypsyBilly]

I could have written this. I am about to volunteer for sound duty, even though I haven't run band sound in 35 years. The problem is most FOH guys mean well, but few of them are musicians so they don't even know what things should sound like. After the service, I ask my daughter who is a musician, "how did the bass sound?" and usually she says it was barely audible. "All I could hear was the piano, the drums, sometimes the lead guitar, and the lead vocal." The second guitar, if any, and the bass are usually absent. It can be discouraging sometimes.

 

[Igotsoul4u]

I always play with an amp for this reason. Tonally my DI sounds a lot better then most cheap DIs but that's not the main reason. There's nothing worse then not being able to hear yourself or wondering if anyone can hear you!!! No one would be happy with either thing so I feel your pain. I've been left hanging enough times that I do whatever I need to do on stage to perform at my best. I have my in ears as well but need to feel the amp behind. I don't run it loud but at a healthy enough volume to musically supplement the room. The bass can be turned down in the house easily. If I am getting a trash in ears mix I can break the seal in one ear and my amp will get me through the gig. Without I am at the mercy of whatever I get which usually means I start playing unnaturally just to hear myself. It's even worse when I play trumpet. If I can't hear I either playing blindly or blowing out my lips. I bring a small powered speaker no matter what.

 

[Ben Clarke]

I would tell pastor they should find $100/wk and pay for a sound person, or pay for training for the team.

Congregations dwindle where production quality is unacceptable to contemporary ears.

 

[Stylee Mousse]

I always play with an amp for this reason.

Old school tried and true: match the stage amp to the drum kit’s unamplified stage volume.

Sound good together.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

If you do this:

I obviously need to EQ to make it easiest for my sound to get through,

...THIS may not really be the case anymore:

I'm almost always playing my good old AVRI P-bass, nothing unusual about my setup.

It depends on how drastically you eq the bass of course.

I'm not saying you shouldn't eq your P-bass, but trying to dial in the FOH mix onstage is usually a very bad idea, simply because you won't really hear what you're doing. Even if you dial the tone in front of the stage during the soundcheck, the room will sound VERY different when it's filled with water based absorbers (also known as human being). ESPECIALLY the bass. The work of a FOH engineer isn't finished after the soundcheck. Far from it.

Also, if your tone works great with SOME of these "sound guys" you should definitely NOT try to compensate for the incompetence of the others. I mean, if you're playing the same bass, through the same signal chain/backline, with the same band, in the same room, through the same PA system... you shouldn't need to drastically change your tone depending on how clueless the sound guy is. In fact, if you want to make the job as easy as possible for the sound guy, you probably can't make it any easier than a clean DI signal of an unprocessed, passive P-bass. If the sound guy can't get a decent sound out of an unprocessed, direct, passive P-bass... well then there really is no hope. What this means for YOU, is that if you're using any kind of fancy processing (like amp/speaker sims) I would perhaps consider ditching those for a while and see if the situation improves.

You mentioned that some of the people in your "sound guy rotation" are great, while others struggle.

The only quick fix to your situation is probably to use the good sound guys and stop this rotation where it seems like anyone who want to call themselves a "sound guy" is allowed to do the sound, no matter how clueless they are.

If this isn't possible, would it be possible for the good ones to mentor the struggling ones? Maybe divide them into "teams" of two, and make sure one of the good ones is always in charge. This way everyone can contribute, and maybe the struggling ones can learn something. Of course, if any of these "sound guys" aren't interested enough in live sound to learn the basic theory on their spare time, they shouldn't even be in the rotation to begin with.

 

[klattman]

in my younger days I bought a crappy wireless just so I could go out and fix the sound. Of course as mentioned above, it’s easy to fix everything but yourself when playing.

Sound techs need two skills
1. Know how to use the equipment to adjust and fix things
2. Knowledge of how music is supposed to sound. Non musicians often don’t notice when something is missing. I’ve tested them by killing my volume and miming. 80% of the time volunteers don’t notice. They can’t fix what they don’t know about.

 

[WaldoNova]

I don't have any advice. I'm in the same situation. I've contemplated starting an identical thread.

Our worship team is moving our rehearsal time to Thursday nights instead of Sunday morning. The sound tech has to make it to the rehearsal. The band leader intends to spend some time out front to ensure we get a better mix. I'm really hoping this improves things. It is difficult to listen back to service after making time to learn material and not being able to hear yourself. Sometimes there's an electric guitar on stage that I heard in my iem but the sound tech "forgot?" to turn up.

Sometimes it is what it is. You get what you pay for. I'm not sure you can fire a volunteer...

 

[bassbones2]

Many churches are like this. Smile and keep going with gentle little hints to the least knowledgeable on how to run sound. Oh, and turn the amp on next to me that I always have handy for that situation…..after the wink and a nod que from the wife in the pews.
Had an Audio install guy hug me because I understood “gain staging” once…..it doesn’t take long to understand that the volunteers dont know much. You got to help them
JB

 

[SLO Surfer]

There’s no good solution that will include a sound guy fixing this, so I’d rely on an amp to make your bass audible in the house.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

(was going to post this in the P&W thread but it looks like that one got locked)

I am playing at church and have been for a few years now. We've got a solid team on the stage, but in the sound booth we have a revolving cast of people with varying skill levels. It can range from someone who's really great to someone who struggles with getting all the lines muted or unmuted when they should be. (There was a time recently when I was muted through the whole second set and it wasn't noticed, nor could I get his attention.)

We use IEMs and I can make my own mix and I sound good to those on the stage, I often get compliments on the tone in the monitor mix... but what is heard of the bass in the house is often random. Sometimes good, sometimes just barely there or nothing audible at all.

How do you experienced players handle situations like this? I obviously need to EQ to make it easiest for my sound to get through, but how would you set up for situations where you may not be getting through, or may not be mixed well? I'm almost always playing my good old AVRI P-bass, nothing unusual about my setup. We are not a big church and it's all volunteers, and there's not really any way to count on who's going to be back there one week to the next.

How would you set up your sound on your board, how would you provide kind and friendly advice to a sound guy who may not know much about live sound, etc. ?

Having played in a good size sanctuary (seating 700-800) with terrible acoustics that got excited at 250hz to the point the roof rattled, I understand your plight. We eventually went to avioms and I had a Buttkicker (Tactile transducer which was great I might add), however this didn’t help with the house mix. What did help with the house mix was when I bought a Tascam pocket recorder and put it back in the sanctuary and shared the recordings with the other players as well as the praise and worship pastor. It took exactly two weeks and problem was solved. I didn’t have to say a word and nobody got hurt in the process.

One more thing, the side benefit was once the praise and worship team heard themselves they tendered to improve rather dramatically.

 

[brocket]

Same here. There was one Sunday in particular where halfway through the last song I was frustrated and just wanted to hear something I was playing come through the mains, so I just started playing random notes up and down the neck and still could not hear anything. Super frustrating for the time, commitment, and effort to amount to nothing.

We use Planning Center so I can see who is running sound and prepare accordingly based on who is running sound. We use a SansAmp as the DI, so I'll turn the level down a little at the start of rehearsal and set the volume at the bass to around 90%. Once the service starts I turn the SansAmp level up a bit and have additional volume on the bass as well. I've played there for years so I have a good sense of what "good" sounds like form the stage and aim for a touch less than I'd think to make sure I'm not setting myself too loud. It's amazing the number of times I've done that and the sound guy hasn't even noticed.

Also, I've been trying to do better with the who/what/why of playing at church. It's an opportunity to serve the body. Even if I can't be heard, there is still something good happening with me being there, even if it's just a moment for me to practice some humility.

 

[MonetBass]

Most modern boards have presets you can save, including the one at this church. We don't change up the instrumentation week-to-week, so all the sound person has to do is (1) keep the knobs where they are, or (2) recall the preset. Simple.

 

[JenderBazzFass]

Same here. There was one Sunday in particular where halfway through the last song I was frustrated and just wanted to hear something I was playing come through the mains, so I just started playing random notes up and down the neck and still could not hear anything. Super frustrating for the time, commitment, and effort to amount to nothing.

We use Planning Center so I can see who is running sound and prepare accordingly based on who is running sound. We use a SansAmp as the DI, so I'll turn the level down a little at the start of rehearsal and set the volume at the bass to around 90%. Once the service starts I turn the SansAmp level up a bit and have additional volume on the bass as well. I've played there for years so I have a good sense of what "good" sounds like form the stage and aim for a touch less than I'd think to make sure I'm not setting myself too loud. It's amazing the number of times I've done that and the sound guy hasn't even noticed.

Also, I've been trying to do better with the who/what/why of playing at church. It's an opportunity to serve the body. Even if I can't be heard, there is still something good happening with me being there, even if it's just a moment for me to practice some humility.

Yeah, this is my attitude. The other musicians hear me in their mix, so I'm contributing something to the group even if in the house the bass isn't audible. And I am still worshipping for myself, with my bass, playing the song.

I felt silly the last time I was up, because in the second service I was muted both in the house and in the monitors even though the other instruments weren't, and the sound guy didn't notice. Bass seems like it can be an afterthought to novice sound guys, I guess? I couldn't get his attention so I was playing but was playing nothing. I didn't know what else to do but that