I tune down with them no big deal? It changes the truss rod setting so little it's not much of an aging point on my electrics .. you can go up in gages to even it out.
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Double Bass What do you do with Guitar players that tune down a half step?
- Thread starter bobsax
- Start date
I think my Shen's a fake. I can't find a way to adjust its truss rod — I think it might not even have one. My cheap CCB, I understand it not having a truss rod, but surely a Shen should/would come with one?
And where can I find these D'Addario XLs somebody mentioned? I can only find them in short-scale 34" lengths and I want a set in case I ever have to down-tune.
Yucks aside...
I do whatever it takes.
Mostly I just make my ear work harder when somebody tunes down or capos up.
I've tuned my E to drop D, which is fun for some songs, but I can't be bothered to tune the entire bass down a half step, though I probably would if the whole evening was going to be played that way.
Alas, my bluegrass band is no more.
And where can I find these D'Addario XLs somebody mentioned? I can only find them in short-scale 34" lengths and I want a set in case I ever have to down-tune.
Yucks aside...
I do whatever it takes.
Mostly I just make my ear work harder when somebody tunes down or capos up.
I've tuned my E to drop D, which is fun for some songs, but I can't be bothered to tune the entire bass down a half step, though I probably would if the whole evening was going to be played that way.
Alas, my bluegrass band is no more.
It would be helpful if you posted a strong example Steve. Most of the clips I've seen show Milt using the entire fingerboard. And he wouldn't be a great example of academic technique, his was more of an unorthodox approach to get the job done and while leaning towards the live entertainment aspect of bass playing. I love Milt Hinton. He played the lower part of the bass in flat keys..he didn't strictly shift to the area of the neck heel and stay there as you have advised, at least as far as I've been able to tell. That severely limits the dynamic range of expression that is available on our intrument. It's the polar opposite of limiting one's playing to the 1/2 and first position. My take. I think we'll need to agree to disagree on this subject. But again, if you could post a clip or two of Milt playing this way, maybe even from different eras, it would be very educational.
- Oct 12, 2004
- 1,327
- 587
- 72
- Disclosures
- Retailer: Shen, Sun, older European
Just Play it in standard if you tunes down a half step you will have to set the action on your bass, if you are playing with a band that plays in Drop D, Tune the bass down a hole step with thicker gauge strings so the tension is still ok.
- Oct 12, 2004
- 1,327
- 587
- 72
- Disclosures
- Retailer: Shen, Sun, older European
I have been away at a rurally located music camp for the last four days. For the next 3 days I will be on long bass road trips. The idea of doing internet video homework for someone that I don't know is not very high on my list. However, quickly glancing through Milt Hinton's wonderful autobiographical coffee table book, "Playing the Changes", there are several photographs showing Milt with his higher than usual playing position with his bass up higher on the pin. These photos are found on pages 61, 63, 65, 95, 142, and 228. There may be more photos like this in the book, but I have to prep basses for these trips and it will be bedtime soon. Have fun looking through this great book!
Maybe I'm in the minority on this topic, but I still subscribe to the idea that if you know the actual key, then that's all you should need to play the bass (and I'm no pro). The notes and chord shapes don't "change" on the bass regardless of tuning/capo'ing of other instruments. If a guitar player can't tell me what key he's playing in because he slapped a capo on, then he's probably not going to be playing with me very much. I can't imagine playing in an ensemble with a chord player who can't at least express what key he wants to play a tune in. It's not just the bass player that needs such information lol.
Could not possible agree more. I'm also not a pro, and don't actually consider myself a "musician," since I don't read music or really understand theory and have never had to earn a living playing music. But I know the notes on the fingerboard and have mastered a rudimentary understanding of keys, scales, etc.
I don't know what to say, but ... "no problemo". I use balanced string sets on all my basses (flats in 045 060 080 105 are my favourites). And I tune habitually in DGCF (a whole step down). This started when I once needed the low D, tried drop D, hated it, and instead tuned the whole bass down. If you actually care for the tension of your strings, get something really balanced or even slightly progressive tension. Then tuning down is no problem. I even use the same gauges on my short scale (30"), and tune it DGCF. Even that one handles it, even if it is borderline.
I do not care how others tune. I am probably the musician with the least experience in our band, but I think the guitarists struggle way more when it comes to transposing than I do. Give me your chords, and I'll be able to play around it with some exploratory practice. I have no problem with open strings, but the lack of open strings is rarely a problem.
I do not care how others tune. I am probably the musician with the least experience in our band, but I think the guitarists struggle way more when it comes to transposing than I do. Give me your chords, and I'll be able to play around it with some exploratory practice. I have no problem with open strings, but the lack of open strings is rarely a problem.
Yes, that's a good book, Steve. I have a great photo of Milt in my practice studio, so I see him everyday in print myself. I've been listening to him regularly for over 40 years, and he's never sounded like he was intentionaly limiting his technique in the way you have described. What you are describing seems more like an compressed electric bass sound used on an old TV commercial recording. I've asked you to put up an example of Milt playing in the way you have described, but for some reason you are being evasive. Where are these videos you've told us to watch that illustrate this staying at the heel and avoiding the lower part of the bass playing technique? What's high on my list is being concerned that you could be prescribing a playing technique on the internet which might cause others physical harm and limit their musical potential. I wouldn't dream of telling you what your priorities should be...but if you are too busy for the moment, maybe we could get this straight when you get back from traveling. OTOH, it only takes a moment to upload a clip here
EDIT: About 1:50 in this old clip looks like what you are talking about, Steve..
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- Oct 12, 2004
- 1,327
- 587
- 72
- Disclosures
- Retailer: Shen, Sun, older European
Milt's miming playing the bass while lying down in a train bunk is hardly illustrative of Milt Hinton's typical playing position with Cab Calloway.
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Mr PC, you seem to be the only one here in this thread who is persistently misunderstanding what I was saying. This would be best addressed in a private message, but yours seems to be disabled. I could easily take the tone of your posts as being challenging to the point of pointed belligerence. Bluegrass bass players tend to be a very friendly and cooperative group of people, by contrast. I am in the first few hours of a 15 hour work day today, so there won't be time to write more than this today.
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For the last time, I am not advocating leaving any notes out of the bass' full range. I am, however, advocating leaving out playing the open A, D, and G strings as much as possible. The tone is significantly weaker and less rich down there and muting has to be done with the right hand instead of the left. Over reliance of these open strings is what gets a lot of folk and bluegrass players into a lot of trouble.
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Mr PC, you seem to be the only one here in this thread who is persistently misunderstanding what I was saying. This would be best addressed in a private message, but yours seems to be disabled. I could easily take the tone of your posts as being challenging to the point of pointed belligerence. Bluegrass bass players tend to be a very friendly and cooperative group of people, by contrast. I am in the first few hours of a 15 hour work day today, so there won't be time to write more than this today.
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For the last time, I am not advocating leaving any notes out of the bass' full range. I am, however, advocating leaving out playing the open A, D, and G strings as much as possible. The tone is significantly weaker and less rich down there and muting has to be done with the right hand instead of the left. Over reliance of these open strings is what gets a lot of folk and bluegrass players into a lot of trouble.
[QUOTE="Steve Swan, post: 17216776, member: 48202"
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For the last time, I am not advocating leaving any notes out of the bass' full range. I am, however, advocating leaving out playing the open A, D, and G strings as much as possible. The tone is significantly weaker and less rich down there and muting has to be done with the right hand instead of the left. Over reliance of these open strings is what gets a lot of folk and bluegrass players into a lot of trouble.[/QUOTE]
I would beg to differ on not using the open strings, that they are significantly weaker and less rich as you claim. And I would beg to differ on your point that using those open strings gets a lot of folk and bluegrass players into trouble. Muting with the left hand is a basic technique, and a very powerful one. D minor or D major triads are much easier to execute on the A and D, or D and G strings using the open D either in lower position or up the neck. Now you have three options for that triad as opposed to the one you prescribe by omitting the open D altogether. Over reliance is a state of mind, as is limitation. Negating the use of open strings when played with intention and skill is silly. Like any other area of the instrument, open strings require a skill and a thoughtful approach to master. The only trouble players get into is when they get stuck doing something that doesn't work, and don't seek an economical solution. Your solution of avoiding the open strings as much as possible is not an economical solution. If anything it makes for more busy work with the left hand in getting a simple task done. This my personal opinion, my take.
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For the last time, I am not advocating leaving any notes out of the bass' full range. I am, however, advocating leaving out playing the open A, D, and G strings as much as possible. The tone is significantly weaker and less rich down there and muting has to be done with the right hand instead of the left. Over reliance of these open strings is what gets a lot of folk and bluegrass players into a lot of trouble.[/QUOTE]
I would beg to differ on not using the open strings, that they are significantly weaker and less rich as you claim. And I would beg to differ on your point that using those open strings gets a lot of folk and bluegrass players into trouble. Muting with the left hand is a basic technique, and a very powerful one. D minor or D major triads are much easier to execute on the A and D, or D and G strings using the open D either in lower position or up the neck. Now you have three options for that triad as opposed to the one you prescribe by omitting the open D altogether. Over reliance is a state of mind, as is limitation. Negating the use of open strings when played with intention and skill is silly. Like any other area of the instrument, open strings require a skill and a thoughtful approach to master. The only trouble players get into is when they get stuck doing something that doesn't work, and don't seek an economical solution. Your solution of avoiding the open strings as much as possible is not an economical solution. If anything it makes for more busy work with the left hand in getting a simple task done. This my personal opinion, my take.
Steve, I'm not trying to fight, please drop the defensive stance. If you take a moment and could post a strong clip, I'd love it, and I'd think others would too. It would a most friendly gesture, and promote some understanding of your concept. If you won't for some reason, that's cool too. But know, it leaves your point and playing concept up for speculation. I think we can easily agree to disagree as I said in the earlier post.
hey guys you may not have noticed but we are talking about the Doghouse. Upright Bass aka Double Bass.
Upright guys tend to use more open strings.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is "Wolf Tones"
that booming sound that can result from harmonic interaction with other string instruments.
My A on the G string can get "wolfy" but it goes away on the D string.
..also sometimes the G string just doesn't sound right. Playing it on the D sting lets you really fine tune it AND playing closed is a lot more expressive because you get to bend around the notes.
When I was studying with John Patitucci at Artist Works you could watch his playing in super slow motion. I was amazed to see that he almost always approached a note a little flat and slid into it.
Wolf tones on open strings? The open string chatters under the bow test? Holy sh** I'd either find a solution for the wolf tone or dump an instrument that had a serious fundamental problem like that. Are you sure you aren't just hearing the difference between an open string ringing out and the darker sound of the note finger on an adjacent string ? It's a good idea I think to find use for both the open and closed notes. The have equal merit when used in context.
I play with a guy that likes to tune down. He likes heavy strings. It makes everything sound "sad."
I think it's a wolf tone on my Shen SB80 ?
It's like the sound you get in a public bathroom when you find a note that resonates. It surrounds you.
It's actually on the A not an open string. Only happens in certain situations. It depends on the other string instruments and the room I suppose?
Well I dunno. I play a lot of bluegrass (though not even near a pro), and I also play jazz (further from being a pro at jazz than at bluegrass). It's pretty common for people to want to sing things in E, or B, and a lot of BG songs have II chords, III chords, VI chords, or bVII chords in them. So even in the common "fiddle tune" keys like G, D, and A you are going to have to finger a lot of notes. I like to mostly play bluegrass tunes as close to the nut as possible though, rather than up near the neck joint. It seems to me that the sound is bigger with more string length working. The advantage to me when I can use a lot of open strings is that I can really bear down and get a big ol' fat note dropped in there when I want; the disadvantage is that I have to explicitly mute the notes. Really though, I just don't think it's that big a deal.
If you learn to play using the proper "claw" technique, and you practice enough to have left hand/arm strength, what's the issue? Just play the tune in the key wanted, without retuning the bass.
If you learn to play using the proper "claw" technique, and you practice enough to have left hand/arm strength, what's the issue? Just play the tune in the key wanted, without retuning the bass.
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Oh, and for me I just think about the chords in I, II, IV, etc., not by the key name. Guitarists in BG love to use the capo, some for ease and some for the ability to choose certain voicings. So you have to learn to read their left hand and figure out if it's the I, IV, etc. chord. But heaven forbid you get the guitarist trying to show you a song on the fly, who doesn't understand the numerical system of chords, and calls out "C", but he's capo'd up 4 frets. But I think learning and thinking about the relative position of the chords rather than their names will keep you from being that bassist "staring at his left hand wondering what the heck to do next".
