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Double Bass What do you do with Guitar players that tune down a half step?

#21
More to the point than whether to play those low notes close to the nut or up near the neck joint on a lower string, is being completely independent of using open strings on the bass. Being able to confidently play closed position notes in any key makes the guitar player's tuning choice irrelevant to playing good social music together. Everyone can sing a song in the key that best suits their own voice. The fiddle player in a band that I played in during 2002-2005 sang three songs in Eb. None of us ever thought anything of it after the first rehearsal.
 
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#22
Steve Swan said:
More to the point than whether to play those low notes close to the nut or up near the neck joint on a lower string, is being completely independent of using open strings on the bass. Being able to confidently play closed position notes in any key makes the guitar player's tuning choice irrelevant to playing good social music together. Everyone can sing a song in the key that best suits their own voice. The fiddle player in a band that I played in during 2002-2005 sand three songs in Eb. None of us ever thought anything of it after the first rehearsal.
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Steve: I agree with being able to play every note in any position. I play for songs in Eb and Ab quite often but I prefer to play the root near the nut. Playing low notes in the first to third positions matters to me even though I can do them up around the heel. I use that area to start descending lines...some end up in the third to fifth positions. Depends on the sound I want and if it fits during an instrumental break. Most of the stuff I play in a band situation though is traditionally-based. Also, if most of the playing is around the heel, some ply basses just do not respond very well. I play the upright bass in acoustic music because I love to hear good low notes that project well.Especially the open A.
 
#23
martinc said:
Steve: I agree with being able to play every note in any position. I play for songs in Eb and Ab quite often but I prefer to play the root near the nut. Playing low notes in the first to third positions matters to me even though I can do them up around the heel. I use that area to start descending lines...some end up in the third to fifth positions. Depends on the sound I want and if it fits during an instrumental break. Most of the stuff I play in a band situation though is traditionally-based. Also, if most of the playing is around the heel, some ply basses just do not respond very well. I play the upright bass in acoustic music because I love to hear good low notes that project well.Especially the open A.
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+1
 
#24
martinc said:
Bob: Whatever. Why would you think I would sic the bluegrass police on you? I mentioned the Herringbone because of its popularity. I could have said "fill-in the blank" or listed out every guitar that has good bass notes. But the point was more about (with tongue slightly in cheek) playing high notes on the bass.
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I guess I'm oversensitive from years of playing bluegrass with somewhat inflexible people from time to time. I sincerely apologize for my generalization. Didn't mean to offend.
 
#26
Avoiding open strings because closed notes supposedly "sound better" is a mind fart. FI, avoiding an open A string out of principle (I'd suspect boredom and a desire to be seen making large movements, as well as jacking up the endpin) will make the a simple job more complicated, will require unnecessary position shifting. It will disturb the flow of music. Playing open strings requires as much skill and awareness of both hands role in tone production as playing closed notes does. If someone has a physical disability, I could understand the need to find a new way to play that doesn't require lifting the stopping arm to the lower positions. My take. For each their own, I suppose.
 
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#28
I play the mandolin, the mandola, the octave mandolin, the mandocelo. I play the guitar and regularly use about four different tunings. I play the bass in EADG; I also tune down to DADG and a couple of other variations if I am playing with a guitar player who uses a non-standard tuning and has poor communication skills, no charts, or a capo addiction. It just makes life simpler and easier to cheat off them when needed- ten times easier than when I need to look at the horn player's real / fakebook for a song! Additinaly, a lot of basses sound huge when you drop the tension a little.

j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com
 
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#29
Steve Swan said:
See Milt Hinton playing this way in his earlier days. He got a great big sound and drove the heck out of the big bands that he played in.
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Steve: Yes...but a big band is a whole lot different than an acoustic stringed group like a bluegrass band. No trombones. So there is nothing in the lower end other than the bass. Those full low notes matter.
 
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#31
Our little boat seems to be sailing around in circles. We all seem to agree that big low notes, all the down to the bottom reaches of the bass are really effective in bluegrass playing. Why this thread even exists is that most bluegrass players rely far too much on the open A, D, and G strings as a conceptual starting point, or "home base". Let's pick the open D as an example. If we switch things up and use as the first choice the D note on the A string played with the little finger in third position, the middle finger in fourth position, or the index finger in fifth position, we are never more than one shift away from being able to use any other needed notes in a song or tune. If we think of the open A, D, or G strings as being the secondary choice rather than the primary choice of fingering that same note on the next lowest string, then the conceptual problem of having guitars or any other instruments in the band using non-standard tunings becomes completely irrelevant.

It is the over reliance of most bluegrass bass players in using the open strings that can make this kind of non-issue a problem to be solved. One effective way to wean yourself of relying on open strings too much is to completely eliminate them for a while and really learn where all of the notes are on the fingerboard up to the body joint. It scares a lot of bluegrass players at first, but cheater marks and consistent practice with not playing open A, D, or G notes for a few months can really open up new worlds of playing the low end. A player doesn't have to permanently stop playing open notes on those three strings, of course, but it can be a great tool to learn new effective playing habits.
 
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#32
bobsax said:
So the question is ;
----do (or can) DB players tune down a half step also?
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Well, yes and no. Double bassists of course can, and even occasionally do. :-) Playing in closed position in any area of the instrument is my first choice, always. A flat and D flat are my favorites, the bass really sings in those keys. Depending on the piece of music and the line I want to do, I might occasionally detune either the E or A strings either a half or whole step. One or the other, never both. Detuning more than one string makes the bass flabby, changes the feel to much for my taste. But most often there is an economical solution, an economy of movement, that allows for playing EADG> The real solution is PRACTICE>
 
#33
I'm by no means a bluegrass player, so I don't know too much of the stylistic requirements in that music. But, in anything "jazz"-like, keys like especially Db are super fun on the bass because the open strings are chromatic approach notes/tensions. Try playing rhythm changes in Db, that's super cool. Or, for that matter, Oscar Pettiford wrote Tricotism in Db- maybe for the same reason?

best
sidecar
 
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#35
elgecko said:
If a guitarist elects to tune down, it's their responsibility to to transpose to the "correct" key.
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Yes, well that doesn't work very well when the guitarist is signing your check and has decided that the songs will all be played a half-step down from the original key, which is what this is about. Just tune down. It's no big deal. I work in two projects that do this (same guitarist) and I just roll with it. Not the end of the world.
 
#38
I'm in a project now where the singer/guitarist tunes down a half step, apparently to go easy on his vox. Everything sounds fine but I can't help but feel like it's being done more out of laziness than anything else. The songs they do are perfectly suitable for downtuning but Id much rather play them at the original pitch. I practice to the studio versions at home and the transition to performance is easy.

The biggest thing I can't stand about it is the setup and modification required to make a bass perform as well as it would (or what I'm used to) at standard pitch. My primary axe is a 2012 American Std Precision that is pretty near flawless in regards to it's tone and playability, but all of that goes out the window when I tune down.

My preferred strings are LaBella Deep Talkin flats 43-104 and for me have the perfect tension, feel and tone. I'm rarely left wanting with that bass. When I downtune a half step, the strings go floppy, I suddenly have fret clank, my intonation is off on the upper registers and my low E disappears. To address this, I would back up the truss rod a hair (I like very little relief) and reset my intonation. Unfortunately, the floppiness remained and the tone suffered. I decided to try a stiffer, heavier gauge string and decided it would be cheaper and easier to use rounds.

I tried heavy D'Addario XL's first, but their feel when downtuned was still very stiff, at least more than my LaBellas at standard pitch. I didn't want to think about how they felt at 440! Also, their tone left much to be desired on that bass. Next I tried DR Lo-Rider nickel 45-105, which I've always been fond of. They were much better, but required me to back off the truss even further and the G string pretty much became a wet noodle. The upper registers also needed intonation tweaking, which is no biggie but unfortunately, they would only last me a few gigs before they started to sound like poo and the intonation suffered from string fatigue to the point where I was needing to replace them more than I wanted to. I wound up just leaving them but was never satisfied with the feel and eventual crappy tone.

Finally I decided to grab a cheapo backup in the form of a Squier Matt Freeman with Duncan SPB-1's. I have it set up to the downtuned pitch and I use 45-105 gauge D'Addario XL's with it. It plays perfectly and while I'm not a fan of D'Addario, they just seem to work with this bass. The only problem is, it sounds and plays so much better than I thought that it feels almost sacrilegious to downtune it! What's the matter with me?

I still hate downtuning but now I have a dedicated bass for it that I don't have to constantly fuss with every other gig/rehearsal. When I explained all of this to the singer, he had a hard time wrapping his head around the amount of fuss I went through in order to make downtuning more palatable for myself.

Some guitarists don't really grasp what goes into a bassists tone/playability quest and often try to apply the same logic they use with guitars, unaware of the nuance and physicality of playing the bass and how that affects what eventually comes out of the amp. "Our other bass player just tunes down and doesn't mess with strings and stuff." To which I replied "My other singer picks songs in his vocal range."

So at the end of the day, my downtuning experience is more gear related than anything else. I won't be staying with this project much longer, as the downtuning was minor on the list of problems I have with it but at least I was able to justify picking up a sweet backup bass (That will soon be permanently tuned to 440);)
 
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#39
Steve Swan said:
Our little boat seems to be sailing around in circles. We all seem to agree that big low notes, all the down to the bottom reaches of the bass are really effective in bluegrass playing. Why this thread even exists is that most bluegrass players rely far too much on the open A, D, and G strings as a conceptual starting point, or "home base". Let's pick the open D as an example. If we switch things up and use as the first choice the D note on the A string played with the little finger in third position, the middle finger in fourth position, or the index finger in fifth position, we are never more than one shift away from being able to use any other needed notes in a song or tune. If we think of the open A, D, or G strings as being the secondary choice rather than the primary choice of fingering that same note on the next lowest string, then the conceptual problem of having guitars or any other instruments in the band using non-standard tunings becomes completely irrelevant.

It is the over reliance of most bluegrass bass players in using the open strings that can make this kind of non-issue a problem to be solved. One effective way to wean yourself of relying on open strings too much is to completely eliminate them for a while and really learn where all of the notes are on the fingerboard up to the body joint. It scares a lot of bluegrass players at first, but cheater marks and consistent practice with not playing open A, D, or G notes for a few months can really open up new worlds of playing the low end. A player doesn't have to permanently stop playing open notes on those three strings, of course, but it can be a great tool to learn new effective playing habits.
Click to expand...


Steve: I dunno. I won't argue your point about needing to know where all the notes are on the bass. That's basic stuff....or should be....as in the case of being faced with playing for a singer who sings in G# or Eb. But I am not sure we all need to be opening up "new worlds" in the low end when playing bluegrass.
To me, the most effective way to fulfill the supporting role in being a bluegrass bass player, is to provide solid timing and good rhythm. And the best way (in traditional music) to do that, is to use bass lines that are located somewhere in the open to fourth positions. As long as the player can control the correct note duration and feel, this will make ANY mainstream bluegrass band sound good.
Having said that, I will also say I am a believer in using musical connecting lines to lead the singer into chord changes where appropriate and also at the end of verses and breaks. Sometimes, depending on the key, there is a need to go a bit higher than the fourth position to start a descending line which ends back down the neck when the verse starts. I think what drives all of this is the need to be musical about what we play. Just because we can play around the heel does not mean it necessarily serves the music well. It may save some players from the "boredom of playing some open strings" but it can also take away from doing what serves the music best.
Many bluegrass bass players take to the instrument in order to get involved in bluegrass music. Root-5 is about all they really want to do. Bluegrass music at it's basic level is not complicated as long as the timing is right, so root five will allow them to get by quite well and not screw up the music. The next step up from that is crucial. How do you advance from root-5 and not take away from the basic needs of the music? To me it requires an awful lot of listening to find players to learn from who add good notes to their playing..... rather than just technique and the ability to play notes in any position just for the sake of it. Thank goodness for players such as Bob Moore, both Roy Huskey's, Travis Book, Gene Libbea, Dennis Crouch, Scott Mulvahill and Byron House.
I commented a few years back that I think we are now living in good times to play bluegrass because the music is changing so much. There are many new groups that don't sing cabin songs or just use 3 or 4 chords. This requires bass players to have a much better knowledge of their instrument. Traditional ways of playing are not enough. But I have also watched many of these same gifted (and trained) bass players who use notes all over the neck in some of their material but revert back to open strings and notes close to the nut if the song requires it.
I've probably gone on too long with this Steve ......
 
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#40
The foundation of Bluegrass is that it is a vocal folk music of pretty simple construction. It is pretty easy on the ear and fairly easy to jump in and learn fairly quickly. It has been my experience that most bluegrass bass players don't have very much theory background and most don't play out of positions using the "claw" hand formation. A very common sight in a bluegrass band is a poor bass player standing there in bass hell staring at their left hand, wondering what to do next. Without playing out of real positions, the only notes that they will ever feel really sure about are the open strings. The crutch of depending on the open strings too much then becomes and ingrained habit. It is a wonderful thing to participate in bass workshops and clinics (all donated time, of course) and see the lights come on for struggling bluegrass bassists when they quickly learn how to play out of positions rather than guessing each time that they play a fingered note. Free from staring at their hands and fingerboards, they are now free to confidently play and even sing while relating to the audience and the rest of the band. Who knows, maybe they will even feel confident enough to play with some knucklehead guitar player who insists on tuning his instrument down a half step.
 

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