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Double Bass What exactly IS the "Luthier's Prime Directive"?

#81
In 1971 I bought an 1859 Gustave Bernadel Bass . It was a 7/8 with Cello shoulders. The typical 19th century French Bass. It was almost in mint condition. Even the back of the neck was a bit too thick for me. I could hardly play the Bass in thumb position. If the Bass had been cut it would be more playable but would destroy the beautiful carving in the upper back.

In 1973 I bought an old Italian Bass that was even bigger than the Bernadel but it had been slightly cut in the early 19th century and was easier to play then the beautiful Bernadel. I eventually sold the Bernadel without any regret at all because it was difficult to play.

We must remember that when many of the old classic Basses were made, the music was a bit different. The late 18th century and 19th century saw more intricate writing for the Bass in the orchestra as well as many solo pieces . The Bassist in earlier centuries was not as challenged musically and the makers made Basses accordingly. Even after the music was more demanding the makers still stuck to tradition with only a few exceptions.

Many of the early 19th century makers did some of the cutting themselves and learned in the process. If a Bass is built with shoulders too high to reach over then the alteration is almost a must if the Bass is going to be used in modern times.
If you want the old mellowed sound with the new shape for ease of playing the a cut Bass is usually the only answer.
 
#83
Gee Bob, that was fast. Evening is the best time for me to do the TB thing as well......

The Bass was sold to a well known Jazz musician ( not sure if name dropping is cool) but I heard it was stolen awhile later. Years later I saw a b&w pic of him in a magazine and it looked like the same kind of Bass but the varnish was lighter. My Bernadel had a deep wine red over gold oil varnish. The most beautiful flamed carved back and matching ribs I have seen along with the 'Thickest' perfectly grained spruce top you could imagine. Maybe the Bass was recovered and the pic in b&w made it look lighter 'or' , he went out and bought another 19th century Cello shaped Fench Bass !!

Hey Bob, if you get a chance take a look at my post on the Dearborn Bass and look at my Batchelder and give my your 2 cents if you don't mind.
 
#86
After re-reading the various posts in this discussion, I realized that no one had speculated on the possibility of a change in the sound of a bass after it had been cut down. It seems to me that by reducing the shoulders you are not only reducing the vibrating surface area of top and back, but also reduced the internal air volume. While it is true that there is no "ideal" resonance frequency for the body air volume (A0), reducing the air volume would certainly change some the instruments characteristics. I have to wonder how many times in the past someone has purchased a fine old bass based on it's sound and then had it cut down for easier playing only to discover that sound they liked is no longer there. Just speculating...
 
#87
Originally posted by Martin Sheridan
Since Wynton's bass player, Rodney Whitaker, plays one of my basses I think anything he says or does is just fine. There are some pictures of it in Rodney's CD...Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow, and I'll be really ticked if someone cuts it down!
Click to expand...

Rodney is one of my faves. If he plays it on Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow it is a great sounding instrument.

I have all 4 of his recordings under his own name. Hope he puts something else out soon. My favorite is Ballads and Blues on the Criss Cross label.
 
#88
Bob,
It would certainly change the sound, that's for sure. The Carcassi model that Kolstein and others make was cut down. I've not heard the original, but the copies I've heard have all been good, so there must be something said for the design as it exists now.
I am sometimes amazed at how much repair some of the great old basses have had: new bar, grafted neck, 150 odd patches and they still sound like warm chocolate.
 
#89
Martin - It may indeed be true that the copies would sound good. I would expect nothing less since the top and back would no doubt be graduated as a unit (symetrical?) rather than as the cut down original. The originals (as made by the maker) edges would likely have been thicker than in the area where the cut down shoulders now exist. Since there would be no recorded sound of before and after to compare, we will never know for sure one way or the other if anything was lost in the process.
 
#90
It's been my experience that basses with a fairly large upper bout (in relation to the lower) have the deepest, most rumbly sound. I surmise that when you change the relationship by making the upper bout shorter and narrower you should theoretically lose some of that depth. But, alas, I have no way to prove this theory. Then again, I have a great broad-shouldered Lamy, c.1850 in my shop...Let me go sharpen up my pruning saw!
 
#93
Arnold,
Your comment is exactly what I've always heard from good orchestra players.
I once told Robert Gladstone that I was making a Panormo copy and he commented: "Martin do the world a favor and don't! I've been standing like this for 30 years". He then held his hands and arms straight out from his body. He said that's all the closer he could get to the fingerboard, but his Panormo had wider shoulders than most.
Jack Budrow had a very nice Panormo c. 1790 and always complained about how hard it was to play in the thumb positions. When I said that maybe I should scale down the upper portion in my copies he said that he always thought that ruined the big bottom that those basses have, and added that the problem with basses is that "there's no perfect bass that will do everything".
 
#98
Originally posted by Don Higdon
How does my bass (the one on the left) square with that? See also picture #3 at Link Removed
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Don--Since I know your great Transylvanian bass well, I feel qualified to answer. That bass sounds deep DESPITE having relatively small, sloped shoulders. The reason, IMHO, is that it is built very thinly, with excellent tonewoods, and a deep recurve around the top and back. And it has a very long body with lots of wood beneath the f-holes to vibrate. Unfortunately, that top may not be around the requisite 200 years to be considered a classic. But, then again, neither will you...
 
#99
Ladies? Gentlemen? [/B][/QUOTE]


Yeah, Sam I saw this. Not a bad price...Guess he's not charging for the frets.

Don, the pictures of your old American Standard revealed, on the upper top bout,left side top plate, some pretty serious fingernail gouges similar to what Ray Brown used to do to his basses from dropping off the E string in his famous ass-kicking skip down to the E to get the whole band in gear.
He was out on the road once, and needed some emergency repair..I don't remember what the problem was, but upon picking up his bass, not only did the luthier fix his emergency problem, but took great pride in telling Ray that he had taken down the varnish on the top and blended in the gouges on the top..NO CHARGE!
Ray, of course, was beside himself, thinking this may have changed the sound. Ray, being the gentleman he was, didn't say anything!
 

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