Exactly. And you just KNOW that they would have advocated the old "Vulcan Neck Pinch" repair in PARTY FAVOR's situation. Problem is, it takes a very special kind of a guy to make that one work.
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Double Bass What exactly IS the "Luthier's Prime Directive"?
- Thread starter arnoldschnitzer
- Start date
Exactly. And you just KNOW that they would have advocated the old "Vulcan Neck Pinch" repair in PARTY FAVOR's situation. Problem is, it takes a very special kind of a guy to make that one work.
Yes, I admit I have IMPROVED many basses (the owner's declaration, not mine). Some of those improvements invoved modifying string lengths, changing neck angles, and even (GASP!) re-graduation of top and/or back plates. BTW, regraduation does not only mean thinning--it can also involve thickening; sometimes both in the same job. Damon: I wasn't aware Temptation was a woman...please expound.
Yes, but didn't Mr. Traeger put the bolt in from the inside?
Now that you bring it up Nick, just how did Traeger & David Horine (sp?) manage to drill the hole and then line line the bolt/screw through the endpin hole. That seems like a pretty good trick to do at the end of a 4 foot rod extension. I understand using the extension rod to get the bolt out, but lining it up to put it in would be another story. Not the kind of job to do after night of serious drinking,
After thinking about this one for a while, I think I would like to play the Devil's Advocate once again. While I've never used a bolt to reattach a neck, I can see circumstances where this bolt thru the neck block technique might be totally acceptable. Certainly, a Gagliano would not be one of those circumstances, but if we were dealing with a somewhat ordinary factory made bass that had not only the neck detached but also a detached back button, I would think a good case could be made that repairing a bass in this fashion would be acceptable under the "Luthier's Prime Directive" especially if the owner was unable to afford the cost of a proper button graft. Since the bolt/lag screw is removable (with one of Jeff Bollbach's special 4 foot long tools), the bass can be returned to it's original (i.e. broken) condition. While there would be a hole through the top block and the hidden portion of the neck heel, this would certainly be no worse than what is done to attach a typical fingered "C" extension even if we were to forget about the hole through the scroll for the string. If you were to remove the extension, the holes from the attaching screws would probably be visible. [End of Devil's Advocate]
Jeff Bollbach
Jeff Bollbach Luthier, Inc.
My problem with a bolted on neck is not so much the cheesiness or the reversability. It's the scenario of what happens if the bass is dropped. Much uglier damage can occur because of a bolt applied in the aforementioned manner.
Excuse my ignorance, but has anyone (luthiers only please) actually seen this happen or is it just speculation on what could happen? And...just how big a bold/lag screw are we talking about here?
Jeff Bollbach
Jeff Bollbach Luthier, Inc.
Yes, I have. More than once. and as big as Nnick's standard unit of measurement.
I don't have to speculate to know what will happen if I jump off the Brooklyn Bridge. If you drop a bass with a properly glued neck and you are lucky the neck will break out without major damage. A bolted on neck eliminates that possibility.
Without the bolt.
If the neck pops out without taking the button with it, you're home free. If it doesn't, you've got to take the back off for a button graft.
With the bolt.
It either holds after the fall or breaks the neck. If it holds, the prayers you said while it was going down were answered. If it doesn't, you're going to need a new neck or a neck graft.
If you are careful and don't drop it - Now isn't that a better solution?
If the neck pops out without taking the button with it, you're home free. If it doesn't, you've got to take the back off for a button graft.
With the bolt.
It either holds after the fall or breaks the neck. If it holds, the prayers you said while it was going down were answered. If it doesn't, you're going to need a new neck or a neck graft.
If you are careful and don't drop it - Now isn't that a better solution?
Luthier's secondary directive: don't squash it.
Luthier's prime directive in layman's language: don't f*ck it up.
Luthier's prime directive in layman's language: don't f*ck it up.
[qoute] [qoute]
-If this were a perfect world and accidents never happened, the solution of being careful and not dropping it would be perfect. Unfortunately, the average bass might as well have a gigantic bullseye painted on it because they are always going to be targets for accidents. Therefore, With that being said, a lagbolt through the neck block increases the likely hood of major damage occuring. Why chance it? If the job is worth doing, it's worth doing in a manner that improves the survivability of the bass.
Furthermore, the Luthier's Prime Directive - of what should and shouldn't be done- should be based on mutual understanding of the Luthier and his or her client on a case by case scenerio. If this involves both educating the client and yourself through research/consultaion with another luthier - so be it. Blanket statements of acceptable practices are almost pointless, there are always going to be exceptions - and yes, perhaps even extreme exceptions that involve screws, and lagbolts.
Although my comment about being careful was intended to be humorous, let me offer an observation of over 40 years of fixing broken basses. IMO 95% of the accidents where the neck is detached or broken is the direct result of the owner doing something stupid.
"Blanket statements of acceptable practices" are not pointless. They are standards. And, yes, there are always excpetions...
Bass luthiery hasn't been on par with the rest of the violin family, historically speaking. I keep active relationships with my lluthierian brethren because of this. Being one of the younger fellers in the biz, it's important that I keep gathering information and techniques in hopes of maintaining a standard for myself, and just maybe, for the other guys out there on the bench. Some of the most horrific repairs and restorations were executed by "established" luthiers, that either live in a vacuum, or simply stopped caring.
Hughindigo, welcome to Talkbass. By the way, would you mind introducing yourself? Your profile is a little bare...
Bass luthiery hasn't been on par with the rest of the violin family, historically speaking. I keep active relationships with my lluthierian brethren because of this. Being one of the younger fellers in the biz, it's important that I keep gathering information and techniques in hopes of maintaining a standard for myself, and just maybe, for the other guys out there on the bench. Some of the most horrific repairs and restorations were executed by "established" luthiers, that either live in a vacuum, or simply stopped caring.
Hughindigo, welcome to Talkbass. By the way, would you mind introducing yourself? Your profile is a little bare...
I mean that many owners are not proactive when it comes to protecting their instruments from damage. Not thinking about possible sources of damage before they have a chance to happen. For instance - I had to do a neck graft on a nice old Pollman because the owner stored the instrument in a room corner that was also the path that his very large dog took to get to the kitchen. A proactive owner would have tied the bass in with shock cords like (I believe it was) Chris did. Another put his bass on top of all of his other equipment in his van. When the owner had to stop suddenly, the bass kept going and crashed into the front of the car breaking the scroll in the process. Rearranging the equipment before starting off would have saved the bass from damage. My 95% figure may be off a little. It probably more like 98%. Very few accidents have to happen if the owner uses his/her head for more than a place to put his hat.
It may also be that conditions were quite different at the time some of the "establihed" luthiers made the repairs. You brought up the name Traeger in an earlier post that got this particular discussion going. As I know you are aware, I hold Charles Traeger in the highest regard. Without the work of people like Traeger in New York and David Horine in Cinncinati, there probably wouldn't be specialized bass luthiers today. I seriously doubt if either of them attended a violin making school like so many of todays luthiers. They pioneered the craft and no doubt made mistakes by todays enlighten standards. As I mentioned earlier in my Devil's Advocate post, I've never used a bolt/lag screw to reattach a neck. However, I can certainly see situations where I would consider it acceptable. We would all like to make text book repairs like button grafts, but sometimes the economics dictate doing something else. If I were to give a customer a choice of doing a button graft for say $1,500.00 or using a bolt like the Traeger repair for say $150.00. I'd say there is a pretty good chance that the owner would be willing to accept the risk of possible future extensive damage from the bolt for a chance to get his instrument back in playing condition for 10% of the cost. It could be that Traeger and Horine made that offer to their customers 20-40 years ago.
Jeff Bollbach
Jeff Bollbach Luthier, Inc.
True, but choosing the cheaper method can often cost more in the long run. To both the bass's owner and possibly to the luthier's rep.
BTW, the aforementioned Traeger repair was done with the top off and not thru the endpin hole as I originally thought. I actually spoke to Chuck about it with the hopes that he could give me a clue as to how to get it out.
