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What exactly is "tube warmth"?
- Thread starter mr_musica
- Start date
thank you for your service!Nope - a couple of us have...
In a September 2014 Bass Player interview, Andrew Barta of Tech21 stated: The reality is that the warmth (of tubes) is not from the heat of the tubes, but from their imperfections, as they are not 100% linear. Tubes generate overtones and harmonics on top of the input signal. As they are pushed further and further, you get more of this effect. Not all of the same tubes have the exact same imperfections, which is why two of the exact same amps can sound different. There are other factors....
The "better" tone sounds tube enthusiasts will mention only a tube amp can provide. The steady warmer and growl sound, breakup and clipping. As more of a lover of solid state and even hybrids myself, I never really did get the alure of spending and upkeeping more with tube amps, not to mention the issues I often had with the few I used. But that's me and my opinions.
Probably, but the part of me that taught graduate-level statistics for 17 years couldn’t resist.
BTW, thank you for your replies in this thread. I feel like I always learn something useful whenever you get into one of these. Back in the 80s when I was an engineering student I took a circuits class but I can’t say much of it stuck, so I appreciate you sharing your expertise.
Trying to describe sonic characteristics with words is about as effective as trying to describe exactly how a particular wine will taste by using words only. Especially considering that certain words may have different meanings to different people.
The only way to truly understand how our senses will perceive something is to actually smell, taste, hear, see or feel it for yourself.
The only way to truly understand how our senses will perceive something is to actually smell, taste, hear, see or feel it for yourself.
In other words, "Tube Warmth is the feeling some bass players get from playing bass through a tube amp." or "If I have to explain it, you'll never understand it anyway."
I happen to know an expert on tube warmth…
Tubes frequently sound a little different from non-tube amps, but no one can put their finger on how, so they use the term "warmth" to describe that difference, if there is one.
I can recognize a difference between tube and solid state amps designed with similar goals, but I couldn't pass a blind test.
I can recognize a difference between tube and solid state amps designed with similar goals, but I couldn't pass a blind test.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
For me it's much more about subjective play feel and less about technical details, which tend to be all over the map.
Indeed. And 'cool blue', what's up with that?! Blue is the colour of the highest energy photons in the visible spectrum...
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I told myself last night I'd stay out of this thread having said enough, but there is one thing I haven't seen mentioned.
Assuming that 'warmth' is ascribed to valves/tubes, maybe it's a relative term, because maybe transistors were seen as 'cold'. Could there be a basis for this? As it happens, there is...
In the 1970's, QUAD Electroacoustics Ltd made transistor amps, after originally making valve amps. This firm was extremely influential, so others did similar things. There was a time when 100K inputs were common, then later amps used 10K inputs. The output of receivers like the QUAD FM3 were expected to feed a 100K input, and if they were connected to the newer 10K inputs, the result was a bass roll-off, a more 'neutral' sound. Some people liked it, others didn't, and in restoration circles these days the standard advice it to uprate a polyester capacitor on the output of each channel by ten times its original value to restore the originally intended response, and I have done this, and the result may easily be described as 'warm'!
I suspect a lot of the reputation of transistors as 'cold' may be due to mismatched choices of input and output resistance that generally disappeared when later gear was made with the expectation that a 10K input would be fed, and by the time op-amps and feedback were used to reduce the design considerations to a simpler voltage-based analysis, the problem disappeared, but like urban myths, the 'perception' remained.
tube warmth is a range of about 350 to 500 degrees F, according to my infrared thermometer. Much hotter than solid state and therefore better.
This is talk bass, you will need to read 7,000 pages of variations on the “tubes are hot” joke.
Plug a guitar into an old 50's Fender Deluxe or Gibson GA 20 and crank it just a little, and you'll know what tube warmth is. 
Can't get that sound, feel, and dynamics without tubes. (No, you can't. 
) Some of the newer digital modeling amps can do a serviceable approximation, but they're not the thing itself.
Matters more for guitar than for bass, imo, ime, ymmv, etc., though the difference still can be felt. BUT ... tubes are a pita, as we know, and so I find a different kind of "warmth" from my Quilter amps to be pleasing, without all the hassle. A workable practical solution.
Can't get that sound, feel, and dynamics without tubes. (No, you can't. ) Some of the newer digital modeling amps can do a serviceable approximation, but they're not the thing itself.Matters more for guitar than for bass, imo, ime, ymmv, etc., though the difference still can be felt. BUT ... tubes are a pita, as we know, and so I find a different kind of "warmth" from my Quilter amps to be pleasing, without all the hassle. A workable practical solution.
In the spirit of "you know it when you hear it," I've have owned a proverbial 100 pound tube amp and many others. Rather than "tube warmth," I'd just call what you're hearing "tube like." Some solid state designs can closely get there, but if you're acclimated to using tube amps, the solid state approach typically doesn't quite get there. I found a new approach that's working for me, and only weighs a few pounds.
The signal chain goes from bass --> TC Electronic boost pedal --> Noble tube preamp/DI --> power amp etc.
The boost pedal saturates the tube preamp before moving on to the powered speaker/FOH. Not looking for overdrive, just that "tube warmth" we've spent 8 pages talking about. It's an efficient solution for me that provides the sonic benefit of tube-based sound shaping and hardly weighs anything.
The signal chain goes from bass --> TC Electronic boost pedal --> Noble tube preamp/DI --> power amp etc.
The boost pedal saturates the tube preamp before moving on to the powered speaker/FOH. Not looking for overdrive, just that "tube warmth" we've spent 8 pages talking about. It's an efficient solution for me that provides the sonic benefit of tube-based sound shaping and hardly weighs anything.
"We don't have the technology to do better than this, unfortunately. It's the best we can do."
60 years of listening to it later...
"Listen to how warm this sound is, it's got a really rich tube quality."
60 years of listening to it later...
"Listen to how warm this sound is, it's got a really rich tube quality."
But the sound has cooled to nearly room temperature by the time a transducer converts it to air pressure waves that we sense with our ears. From that respect tubes and transistors should be on equal footing.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
There is some truth to this IME.
Tines do not necessarily have a “proper” voltage, there are entire ranges of voltage that tubes are specified to operate at, one look at the representative operating curves will show a lot more possibilities than most folks might imagine. Some tubes are specified to operate at 12V or less and have MAXIMUM voltages of less than 30V.
depending on the circuit, this can be true, but there are also circuits where this is not true also.
I once lost a job (I was quitting anyway) by manipulating a double-blind test so the participants own data proved their convincingly absurd marketing statements were patently false. Since their customers also participated, there were a lot of (drunk) “golden ears” that became collateral damage.
I remember a car radio that did that. I can't remember anything much about it but a look inside it didn't reveal any kind of voltage multiplier, there wasn't room. EVen the tuning method was designed to be ultra-compact, it had little piston-like things driven by long threaded spindles a bit like older TV tuners used.
About tube voltages, I'm going to guess that to maximise the yield of expensive devices, the maximum safe voltage was often used, and this might be why gear not aimed at a hi-fi market made more harmonics. Maybe this is partly where the term 'warmth' arose, from the 'hot' high voltage used.
In the Oberheim GM-400 there is a small selection of emulations, and the 'hot' UK valves one was what I chose when aiming for a JJ Burnel sort of sound. It got closer than the others. He originally used a Hiwatt amp, and I knew a guy called Johnny, a Jamaican guy who used to run a sound system in St. Pauls, Bristol. I have often heard (and sometimes repaired) a 400W Hiwatt bass amp that he had driving four 1x18 cabs. There's no doubt it can do the business, but getting a good bass sound with an emulation is entirely viable, and a lot easier to carry!
Thanks a lot for your replies. They are pretty informative... stay tuned... I might make a different thread about neo cabs and traditional "weight-a-ton" speakers
I think it's quite interesting to have a glimpse of what companies think when designing new products, whether it is because they are trying to get themselves into a pretty well-established trend, or when they are trying to put some new concepts or designs in the market (peavey's trans-tube technology comes to mind)
