Well, that attitude quadrupled the rep. for the instrument, so, I don't think "stupid" is the right thing to say.
The big thing that has changed since I wrote that post is that so many bassists are doing viable versions of the suites at this point.
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Double Bass What is it about Bach Cello Suites?
- Thread starter David Potts
- Start date
The big thing that has changed since I wrote that post is that so many bassists are doing viable versions of the suites at this point.
That attitude would halve the rep for the instrument, and banish some wonderful masterpieces from our recital programmes. It's not a zero-sum game.
I say this while owning around 90% of the classical solo bass LPs and good portion of the CDs as well as digital versions - very few people beyond bassists cared about those programs and a big part of that was not having our own rep.
Until recently our relationship with the suites was uni-directional: great for us but we were not offering a new perspective on that music.
Through efforts of many, things have changed for the better on all fronts.
Very little has changed. Very few people beyond bassists care about programs of new music either. As I said, it's not a zero sum game. No need for it to be "either transcriptions or new music". One of the ways you encourage an audience is to give them something familiar. Not everything, just something. You need them filling seats before you can get them to listen to ANYTHING. Banishing transcriptions removes all of the familiar from programs. Is that wise? I don't care what Bert Turetzky said. With the greatest respect to him, I will go on playing transcriptions as long as people want to hear them. Not just transcriptions, but.....
Transcriptions are fine IMO. The issue with them that I sometimes notice is the quality of the transcription with regard to the registers of the bass and the accompaniment. Some seem to recognize that the registers of the melody and the accompaniment originally "below it" are not always interchangeable and adjust accordingly. Some seem to just keep the accompaniment in the original register and let the bass melody sound below the accompaniment, and to me that often sounds a little strange. Not all counterpoint is invertible.
Transcriptions for performance are tricky and there is a lot of wisdom in what Bert said. Name a transcribed work that is a two way street for the bass, something that benefits us as well as the work.
I play transcriptions at home daily - think they are incredible at pushing the limits of our instrument and help get us onto equal footing with other instrumentalists. Still, there are very few where the double bass reveals a significant aspect of the work. This is the real issue.
Also, I have presented and attended packed concerts of both Bert and Scodanibbio, so I think there is something to getting work specific to the instrument and audiences do respond.
I play transcriptions at home daily - think they are incredible at pushing the limits of our instrument and help get us onto equal footing with other instrumentalists. Still, there are very few where the double bass reveals a significant aspect of the work. This is the real issue.
Also, I have presented and attended packed concerts of both Bert and Scodanibbio, so I think there is something to getting work specific to the instrument and audiences do respond.
How does it not benefit us to play great music? And how does anything benefit "the work"? The work is whatever the performer chooses to make of it, regardless of the instrument he or she plays. "The Work" doesn't need to pay the rent or buy strings
In order for a work to have value outside of bass players ears we need to be able to reveal something about the work the original instrument does not - such as a richer, fuller sounding Suite #2.
If we just doing a sub-par version of a work, then it is hardly worth putting on a concert program.
I love Scodanibbio's quote, which is even more hyperbolic, describing his aims: "An expression of the desire to help this instrument finally find its own voice, after having only known the stammering of voices inappropriate to it, or the sadistic violations of the so called avant garde".
If we just doing a sub-par version of a work, then it is hardly worth putting on a concert program.
I love Scodanibbio's quote, which is even more hyperbolic, describing his aims: "An expression of the desire to help this instrument finally find its own voice, after having only known the stammering of voices inappropriate to it, or the sadistic violations of the so called avant garde".
Daniele Roccato and Bozo Paradzik make pretty strong cases for the Schubert Arpeggione piece... admittedly I don't think I've ever heard a arpeggione version
Do you know, Who, specifically, he is referring to?
Can you "name names" of these "sadistic" violators?
I think Jacob Druckman's "Valentine" is probably up there, possibly Theraps by Xenakis, who he worked with.
You seem to be assuming that the mere fact that it's a transcription makes it sub-par. Of course a good performance of a well transcribed, suitable work will reveal something new. A different voice, different emphases and phrasing. Whether you like it or not is a subjective judgement. Should we prevent people giving bad performances of transcriptions? If so, why not ban bad performances of works written for the instrument? They reveal nothing new about the work, either. There's a degree of snobbery in the attitude, IMHO. I'll stop now, I don't want or mean to offend anyone.
I mean, what you say is hypothetically true, and far more possible now. I'd say there is more than a degree of denial in your attitude in terms of the history of our instrument.
The history of our rep. is we've lived on ponderous version of works written for other instruments which sometimes work fine but are only in the rarest of occasions made better by the double bass. Add that to third rate compositions actually written for it before the 1950s and we need to admit a serious issue.
Back to this exact topic: there are a small handful of double bassists who can play some of the suites as well or better than a basic journeyman 'cellist, the rest of us cannot.
We are not out of the woods with our repertoire issues yet, and 5 or 6 great bassists play the suite convincingly doesn't change that. It does, however, show composers more of what is possible.
The history of our rep. is we've lived on ponderous version of works written for other instruments which sometimes work fine but are only in the rarest of occasions made better by the double bass. Add that to third rate compositions actually written for it before the 1950s and we need to admit a serious issue.
Back to this exact topic: there are a small handful of double bassists who can play some of the suites as well or better than a basic journeyman 'cellist, the rest of us cannot.
We are not out of the woods with our repertoire issues yet, and 5 or 6 great bassists play the suite convincingly doesn't change that. It does, however, show composers more of what is possible.
Ok, I accept what you say, but here's the thing: I really really don't care about the history, or what anyone other than paying audiences think of my recital programs. No denial, I just don't think it benefits anyone to think about it. We can agree to differ, we both want the same thing in the end: great music for bassists to play and audiences to enjoy.
we're never going to discover a wealth of unknown baroque and classical masterpieces for the solo double bass, but certainly the issue of the greatest composers not writing for the instrument is a thing of the past. Even just thinking about solo pieces so many of the greatest composers of the 2nd half of the 20th century onwards have written for the double bass - Carter, Berio, Xenakis, Gubaidulina, Holliger, Scelsi, Cage, Ferneyhough, Scodanibbio...
I know you know this music, Damon, just thinking aloud as I read...
