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What the heck are modes and why are they important?
- Thread starter honeyiscool
- Start date
That's the best explination I've heard.
When I was learning modes, I wrote out the major scale WWHWWWH and worked through the modes. I quickly noticed the only difference was you took the first interval and moved it to the back.
Like so:
These are written out for a five string bass using two octaves across.
When I was learning modes, I wrote out the major scale WWHWWWH and worked through the modes. I quickly noticed the only difference was you took the first interval and moved it to the back.
Like so:
These are written out for a five string bass using two octaves across.
Good patient post by gre107. Modes are easy if you spend a little time with them. If you know the Major scale (Ionian) you know them already but don't know that you do. Once your ear identifies them individually and the unique traits of each, you will never confuse lydian for Ionian or mixolydian and so on. There're only 7 diatonic modes. I promise you there is no harm in learning them, and it doesn't take long. Be glad there are only 12 tones in our system!
Your A string fingering on the phrygian is different than I'd use. I'd prefer 1-3-4 rather than 1-2-3
Thats how I was taught early on. I do know how to build the correct scale/chord from any chord tone of a given key, buy I never think in terms of modes,only chords. I find thinking in modes to be just too confusing and abstract.
I love these discussions simply due to the fact I used to drive myself up the wall years ago with it. Modes vs scales... arrrgh! It's a nightmare I lived for a while lol!
Anyhoooo. I find it's VERY beneficial to learn both. Your arpeggios/chord tones are the 'meat and potatoes' of a chords sound so you MUST learn all your arpeggios all over the neck... and keyboard. When chord tones are used for soloing you can actually hear the 'changes' without any accompaniment. When you've got that down you can start looking into chromatic approach notes and adding in all the extensions... 1,3,5,7 + 9,11,13. Now with adding the extensions in you are playing modes but, I find the thought pattern behind it VERY different. I also believe you can hear it in peoples playing.
Modes are the 'meat and potato' plus the extra spice you want. One of my favorite lessons in the past was with a great guitar player called 'Mike Walker' based in the UK. He's played with cats like Mike Brecker and Steve swallow (HEAVY in other words!). I went to him with the old modes vs scales thing... he sent me away and said "all I want you to practice for the next two weeks is the Dorian mode - nothing else!". So like the good little boy I was lol, I did just that. What happened astonishing. I found and started hearing 'the sound' of the Dorian mode and learned soooo much new information within it whereas before it was simply a collection of notes - not that dissimilar to a major scale. For instance C major is made up of the same notes as D dorian, but, they sound VERY different. For instance the words 'santa' and 'satan' use the same letters... they also sound very different! Each mode has its own sound and personality, sit down and learn who they are!
In essence what you are getting is 1,3,5,7+9,11,13 but the thought pattern behind it is more linear. earlier I mentioned that you can hear the different approaches/thought patterns in peoples playing. I just wanna give you a few examples...
Jeff Berlin - He's really into chord tones and extensions for example 1,3,5,7 + 9,11,13. I know one of his good friends and ex-students and we've talked about his practicing and teaching methods. He very much likes to direct people down the 'chord tone + extension route', and, you can clearly hear this in his playing.
Carol Kaye - Again really into chord tones and extensions for soloing. If you compare Jeff Berlin and Carol Kaye's soloing, even though Jeff's playing is a lot more advanced and virtuosic (not that i'm putting down Carol's playing at all!) you can hear the similarities between them with note choice and the phrasing - Its got that bebop type thing going on (which was chord tone based by the way).
Matt Garrison - With Matt's playing you can clearly hear it's more scalic. He likes to have different modes he can substitute over the same chord and you can hear it within many of his solos. Saying that though he also thinks of chords tones as well - I've transcribed some of his solos in the past, in which he is using chromatic surround tones.
Hadrien Feraud - Again, Hadrien's soloing is more scalic in nature compared with Jeff Berlin.
Everyones using the same 12 notes but due to thought patterns while playing/soloing they sound very different.
Now baring this in mind why would anyone want to learn 'just' modes or 'just' arpeggios? Surely it would be far more beneficial to learn both approaches - which then would give you more options and ways to deliver whatever your trying to put across musically.
Good luck,
Scott.
http://www.scottsbasslessons.com
Link Removed
Anyhoooo. I find it's VERY beneficial to learn both. Your arpeggios/chord tones are the 'meat and potatoes' of a chords sound so you MUST learn all your arpeggios all over the neck... and keyboard. When chord tones are used for soloing you can actually hear the 'changes' without any accompaniment. When you've got that down you can start looking into chromatic approach notes and adding in all the extensions... 1,3,5,7 + 9,11,13. Now with adding the extensions in you are playing modes but, I find the thought pattern behind it VERY different. I also believe you can hear it in peoples playing.
Modes are the 'meat and potato' plus the extra spice you want. One of my favorite lessons in the past was with a great guitar player called 'Mike Walker' based in the UK. He's played with cats like Mike Brecker and Steve swallow (HEAVY in other words!). I went to him with the old modes vs scales thing... he sent me away and said "all I want you to practice for the next two weeks is the Dorian mode - nothing else!". So like the good little boy I was lol, I did just that. What happened astonishing. I found and started hearing 'the sound' of the Dorian mode and learned soooo much new information within it whereas before it was simply a collection of notes - not that dissimilar to a major scale. For instance C major is made up of the same notes as D dorian, but, they sound VERY different. For instance the words 'santa' and 'satan' use the same letters... they also sound very different! Each mode has its own sound and personality, sit down and learn who they are!
In essence what you are getting is 1,3,5,7+9,11,13 but the thought pattern behind it is more linear. earlier I mentioned that you can hear the different approaches/thought patterns in peoples playing. I just wanna give you a few examples...
Jeff Berlin - He's really into chord tones and extensions for example 1,3,5,7 + 9,11,13. I know one of his good friends and ex-students and we've talked about his practicing and teaching methods. He very much likes to direct people down the 'chord tone + extension route', and, you can clearly hear this in his playing.
Carol Kaye - Again really into chord tones and extensions for soloing. If you compare Jeff Berlin and Carol Kaye's soloing, even though Jeff's playing is a lot more advanced and virtuosic (not that i'm putting down Carol's playing at all!) you can hear the similarities between them with note choice and the phrasing - Its got that bebop type thing going on (which was chord tone based by the way).
Matt Garrison - With Matt's playing you can clearly hear it's more scalic. He likes to have different modes he can substitute over the same chord and you can hear it within many of his solos. Saying that though he also thinks of chords tones as well - I've transcribed some of his solos in the past, in which he is using chromatic surround tones.
Hadrien Feraud - Again, Hadrien's soloing is more scalic in nature compared with Jeff Berlin.
Everyones using the same 12 notes but due to thought patterns while playing/soloing they sound very different.
Now baring this in mind why would anyone want to learn 'just' modes or 'just' arpeggios? Surely it would be far more beneficial to learn both approaches - which then would give you more options and ways to deliver whatever your trying to put across musically.
Good luck,
Scott.
http://www.scottsbasslessons.com
Link Removed
Reading this thread is like reliving the nightmare for me...
..I really used to beat myself over the head with trying to learn modes, and to be honest today I could not tell you off the top of my head what is phrygian, what is lydian, etc...I find it MUCH easier (and to be honest it makes more sense to me) to just think in chordal tones...For example, instead of saying "this part has solo that uses a mixolydian scale in the key of A Major", it just seems to be so much easier to just think in terms of soloing on the V of C Major...I mean, if you know the C major chord/scale (or any major chord/scale), you can pretty much play any of the other chords/scales/modes within that key as they will have the same notes as the home key (in this case C major), without getting caught up in all this "mode" stuff.
I'm not trying to "diminish" the importance of at least learning what the names of the different modes are and how they relate to a "home" key, but IMO thats really just a subject that belongs in, and should stay in a first year theory class. I think it is just MUCH easier to think in terms of intervals (i.e. chord based on the 3rd, etc).
