What to do when ambition exceeds talent

[azureblue]

For some, music is learned like a lego kit - you get (learn) all the pieces, then you put them together. For others a song is learned, then explored - why is the chord progression that way, how does the melody work, what is cool about the arrangement, what do i like the best in the song, and what do I think could be improved upon?

I suspect you are of the latter, and are experiencing that detachment from reality that comes from trying to learn music theory as a goal, but not being able yet to apply it to what you are doing. I suggest picking a song you know well and love, and take it apart. Learn all the parts and study it. See what happens to it if you change keys, if you speed it up, slow it down, change the chords, why those chords work that way, etc. Maybe take bridge from another song and drop it into it. The idea is to get your creative mind to working, in a practical manner. Once you start to understand what goes into a song, you will get a better grasp on how music theory works in real life, and that is what Is suspect you are having problems with.

 

[progrmr]

For example, if you're currently hitting a wall on the bass, write out (even do it for us here) what it is you are trying to do, and where it is you are failing.

Here's a current example of my process (I recommend no one do this lol!) - I want to play 7th chord arpeggios over a II-V-I progression. So in the key of C Major, that's Dmin7, G7, CMaj7.

So I start with Dmin7 - first thing: What notes? D-F-A-C. Next, try to remember the notes to make them 2nd nature while search for ways to play the arpeggio all over the fretboard. For Dmin7, I could work on that for a week and still not see the notes on the fretboard...I get the shapes pretty well and can play them smoothly but there's no notes after I find the shape.

So I'm feeling pretty good about Dmin7 - on to G7...follow same process..notes are harder to remember, for some reason they keep overlapping with Dmin7 in my mind...anyway I get the notes, start learning the arpeggio shapes over the fretboard. Get that down pretty good.

Ok, so now I have enough information to be able to play the Dmin7 and G7 arpeggios...now I need to "hook them together"...this is where the wheels come off the tracks. I see the Dmin7 shapes, but not the G7 shapes in relation to Dmin7...so I noodle around some lines I already know for a few minutes, put the bass down and watch Netflix for the rest of the night!!

Sounds like fun..?? not so much - I get frustrated trying to do what in my mind is simple, but I can't get in when I put it to the instrument. And I haven't even started CMaj7 yet lol!

 

[henry2513]

Here's a current example of my process (I recommend no one do this lol!) - I want to play 7th chord arpeggios over a II-V-I progression. So in the key of C Major, that's Dmin7, G7, CMaj7.

So I start with Dmin7 - first thing: What notes? D-F-A-C. Next, try to remember the notes to make them 2nd nature while search for ways to play the arpeggio all over the fretboard. For Dmin7, I could work on that for a week and still not see the notes on the fretboard...I get the shapes pretty well and can play them smoothly but there's no notes after I find the shape.

So I'm feeling pretty good about Dmin7 - on to G7...follow same process..notes are harder to remember, for some reason they keep overlapping with Dmin7 in my mind...anyway I get the notes, start learning the arpeggio shapes over the fretboard. Get that down pretty good.

Ok, so now I have enough information to be able to play the Dmin7 and G7 arpeggios...now I need to "hook them together"...this is where the wheels come off the tracks. I see the Dmin7 shapes, but not the G7 shapes in relation to Dmin7...so I noodle around some lines I already know for a few minutes, put the bass down and watch Netflix for the rest of the night!!

Sounds like fun..?? not so much - I get frustrated trying to do what in my mind is simple, but I can't get in when I put it to the instrument. And I haven't even started CMaj7 yet lol!

Who cares about the notes? Dmin G is the II and V of Cmaj, it doesn't matter what the notes are as long as the shapes (which contain the notes) are correct. You're overcomplicating the music by thinking about what notes to play.

 

[Jazzdogg]

What to do when ambition exceeds talent?

Wear costumes and makeup

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Here's a current example of my process (I recommend no one do this lol!) - I want to play 7th chord arpeggios over a II-V-I progression. So in the key of C Major, that's Dmin7, G7, CMaj7.

So I start with Dmin7 - first thing: What notes? D-F-A-C. Next, try to remember the notes to make them 2nd nature while search for ways to play the arpeggio all over the fretboard. For Dmin7, I could work on that for a week and still not see the notes on the fretboard...I get the shapes pretty well and can play them smoothly but there's no notes after I find the shape.

So I'm feeling pretty good about Dmin7 - on to G7...follow same process..notes are harder to remember, for some reason they keep overlapping with Dmin7 in my mind...anyway I get the notes, start learning the arpeggio shapes over the fretboard. Get that down pretty good.

Ok, so now I have enough information to be able to play the Dmin7 and G7 arpeggios...now I need to "hook them together"...this is where the wheels come off the tracks. I see the Dmin7 shapes, but not the G7 shapes in relation to Dmin7...so I noodle around some lines I already know for a few minutes, put the bass down and watch Netflix for the rest of the night!!

Sounds like fun..?? not so much - I get frustrated trying to do what in my mind is simple, but I can't get in when I put it to the instrument. And I haven't even started CMaj7 yet lol!

It sounds way harder than it is ...

Dmin7 is : DFAC
G7 is : GBDF
CMaj7 is : CEGB

So Dmin7 and G7 share D and F. G7 and Cmaj7 share G and B.

Not really complex ... at first you could learn a very easy pattern : like those three are pattern that you could use always starting on the root etc ... not complex at all, you don't even need to know the note you are playing just remember the shape. Then you can elaborate.

If I had to play a walking bass it would look like that in a TAB
|-----2-5-|7-4-----|--------|
|---3-----|----5-3-|2-5-----|
|-5-------|--------|----3-2-|
|---------|--------|--------|

or it could be
|-2-------|---------|5-4----|
|---3-----|-------3-|---5---|
|-----5-3-|2---5----|----5-_|
|---------|--3------|-------|

I think that playing arppegio and scale in broken interval instead of going the easy way like :

|-----------------
|-----------2-4-5-
|-----2-3-5--------
|-3-5-------------

Doing more of a :

|--------------------------
|----------------2---4-2-5- etc
|---2---3-2-5-3---5-------
|-3---5--------------------


Maybe it would help you to write it down first, then try it. In my case I understand way better with something written and some explanation. I learned the theory first and try to decifer the code afterward. So I learned walking bass and music in general after learning to write music and understand many complexities without hearing them first. If I had to take a record and try to undertand what the F*** is going on, I would have abandonned many years ago.

 

[HolmeBass]

This seems to be a common sentiment for this post - forget the theory and just play..just like typing, you just do it.

Doing so for some specific songs, for a band, will make it easier. You'll have more built-in purpose, and better feedback. Plus I feel that gigging helps one improve more quickly; that crucial feedback about what works live with a band, and the heightened perspective of performance, both provide crucial fodder for your efforts to improve. Practice (by yourself, with study aids, metronome, drum machine, etc), rehearse (with your band), and perform. Sort of a golden triangle of things to do to get better in my opinion.

... I've been switching between guitar and bass since 2008 ...

That's only 5 years! You're just starting out, give yourself a bit of a break. If you never stop, you will keep getting better and better. That's a beautiful thing right there. I'd bet there are plenty of bands starting up out there that would love to have you play bass for them.

 

[angryclown5]

Agreed that 5 years is not that long to study music on one's own.

You say you know some patterns, arpeggios and modes, which is great. I have an exercise that I still run often and maybe it will help.

Pick any key, and run the major scale up and down 2 octaves. Then add the third to each note of the scale and run that up and down, so G B, A C, B D, C E, etc.

When you can see that clearly, add the 5th to each scale note: G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, etc. Those are your diatonic triads. This is where it begins to help you learning songs. Each of those triads is either major or minor so thats the shape you can use when your chord chart says G major, or E minor, for example.

If this is making sense so far then add the 7th to each triad. So G B D F# in the key of G. Then A C E G, B D F# A, C E G B, D F# A C, etc.

Say the note names as much as possible while practicing.

Move the exercise to other keys, beginning with keys of songs that you want to learn.

Turn off the f_____g TV!

Good Luck with it.

 

[progrmr]

Here's a vid from Scott Devine about using the major scale patterns and using the patterns to create music - he says that using this approach makes the patterns easier to remember.

I bet the same would apply to arpeggios - just a thought...always trying to find a new way to scale the wall to become a black-belt bass player!

Invalid Link Removed

 

[phillybass101]

The Oh S%^T factor happens when your talent matches your ambitions. They what are you going to do with it. IMO hard work, persistence,determination, and a great personality beats talent everyday. In some ways we are overexposed and feel the pressure to be that 'Total Musician' too much and too often. When that starts to happen to me I think about why I started playing anyway. Cause I simply love the awesome powerful sound of an amplfied electric bass. And then I listen to Funk You up by The Sequence. A fun, and very funky song with Doug Wimbish laying it down. Way before Living Color and tackhead etc.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

It is not talent, you just haven't done the work. It takes a lot of work to sound like you're "talented".

Great Shelly Manne quote "It's amazing how talented you are when you practice 12 hours a day!"

Sure, you can say it's semantics; I'd say it's more a misconception about what ambition means. It's not so much wanting something as it is a willingness to do whatever it takes to get what you want.

If you want to learn where those notes for arpeggios are, play all 4 part chords in all keys in all inversions in open and closed positions. If you want to internalize what they sound like, get a keyboard and play and sing them in all inversions in all keys in open and closed position. It's just work.

Nobody says you have to do the work, there aren't any Music Police that are going to come and confiscate your instrument. All I would say is, if you want a certain result, there is no other way to get there other than putting the work in. Not everyone wants to be a professional ballplayer, lots of folks are happy just going to the park every other weekend and spending a couple of hours playing pickup games. And if that's what you're looking for, you don't need to put anytime into the game at all, just show up.

Work vs. Play -

Note that we PLAY, we don't "work" music.

Sure, just like they "play" basketball and football and baseball and chess and go and a bunch of other pasttimes. But if you think that none of the people involved at those endeavors at the highest level don't put any work in, you're in for a surprise.

 

[Roy Vogt]

To echo Ed's post:
"The harder I work the luckier I get."-Samuel Goldwyn (the G in MGM).

 

[Nev375]

It is good that your ambition exceeds your talent. If it were the other way round, you'd have no drive to practice and improve.

I embrace my limitations in ability and try to write pieces of music that are very close to them. Whatever is a difficult but barely doable stretch or sequence of movements today will be fluid within a few months.

 

[gregmon79]

I haven't read the thread, just the main topic and what you posted. Quite honestly, most people that make it "big" or even make it in a band at all aren't like super good. I mean, some are. But IMO, some aren't. You should be happy your ambition exceeds your talent. And it sounds like you're already half way there as far as knowing music. In my experience, you have to hop into it with some guys and just play play and play some more. It actually sounds like you just need to be inspired more. Just my thoughts. I know I can have ambitions and drive and talent, but if I'm not inspired and passionate about it, I probably ain't playin too much.

 

[dvh]

What is your ambition, exactly? It sounds like you are more concerned about precision in your cerebral ability to know where the notes are in your head and on the board rather than just the joy of making music.

If so, then yeah, you just need to keep working on it. I'd highly recommend a teacher though, to help guide you.

 

[acmebass]

A good ol' boy from Texas I used to play with was talking about someone like that. He said, "His can-do can't keep up with his want-to."

 

[Lilgray]

Playing with other people is FUN and in my opinion, the only reason for playing at all! You don't have to have all of the "book learning" down to jam with people. I've only been playing since January of this year (a whopping 4 months) and I'm already in a "band". I did take a few lessons first as well.

My band mates are all more experienced than I am but I still add depth that wasn't there before (2 guitarists & a drummer) I can follow the root and play along - my lines are simple right now but will only get better as I keep learning. The guitarists love me because I can hold down the bones of the song and they get more freedom to embellish and not be as "strummy"

Granted, you have to find the right group of people - we are a "band" of professionals with stable careers and this is what we do for fun and stress relief. We practice twice a week while drinking red wine - it's a communal, friendship thing first, and cultivating musical talent second.

But even if you want to be a professional musician someday there's nothing wrong with finding others to play with now in a relaxed setting, and you will find you learn the most that way.

Get out of your head and have some fun! Like Janis Joplin said - It's only music, man!

 

[gregmon79]

The Oh S%^T factor happens when your talent matches your ambitions. They what are you going to do with it. IMO hard work, persistence,determination, and a great personality beats talent everyday. In some ways we are overexposed and feel the pressure to be that 'Total Musician' too much and too often. When that starts to happen to me I think about why I started playing anyway. Cause I simply love the awesome powerful sound of an amplfied electric bass. And then I listen to Funk You up by The Sequence. A fun, and very funky song with Doug Wimbish laying it down. Way before Living Color and tackhead etc.

+1000!!

 

[dukeisdog]

I haven't read the thread, just the main topic and what you posted. Quite honestly, most people that make it "big" or even make it in a band at all aren't like super good. I mean, some are. But IMO, some aren't. You should be happy your ambition exceeds your talent. And it sounds like you're already half way there as far as knowing music. In my experience, you have to hop into it with some guys and just play play and play some more. It actually sounds like you just need to be inspired more. Just my thoughts. I know I can have ambitions and drive and talent, but if I'm not inspired and passionate about it, I probably ain't playin too much.

I agree. You need to find something that inspires you to play... A favorite bass, amp, playing music with your children, band, even a CD that gives you chills listening to it.

I have some of the best bass playing time just jamming at home to my favourite CD's and singing along to the lyrics. Although I'd prefer to play with my full band, thats not always an option and I don't just listen to our style of music, so changing it up every now and then is nice. You've just gotta find something to keep you going when you wanna put the bass down.

 

[gregmon79]

I agree. You need to find something that inspires you to play... A favorite bass, amp, playing music with your children, band, even a CD that gives you chills listening to it.

I have some of the best bass playing time just jamming at home to my favourite CD's and singing along to the lyrics. Although I'd prefer to play with my full band, thats not always an option and I don't just listen to our style of music, so changing it up every now and then is nice. You've just gotta find something to keep you going when you wanna put the bass down.

+10,000

That is the reason I started playing, the chills I got/get from listening to music. There is not many bigger inspirations, for me, than that. There are many inspirations for me when it comes to playing my bass. Many. But the chills are way up there on the list. And so many things keep me going. I tried getting an education in the mathematics of music after about 3 or 4 years of playing and it went well. But I wasn't disciplined enough to stick with it and I stopped taking lessons. But I never stopped learning. I still learn everyday. Why, cause I pick my bass up everyday. I jam with my bands at least twice a week. I'm definitely not the most skilled of bassist, but for me, that doesn't matter. If I can sit in a song and play along, and during or after we're done, one of the band members says, "damn dude, that was awesome what you just did", then I'm very happy. I get chills from what I hear, and my main goal is to hopefully do the same to some others in this world before I leave it.

 

[rokkitt]

amazing how practicing 12hrs a day ....what a great line.


Inspired? I was " taking a break" aka frustrated and had my bass under my bed for a few years....

Yes, I got a jump start from the wildest thing.

I can remember the name of the band. It was on America's got talent, or some show like that. They were kids, and the drummer was like 12 years old...the singer might have been 15. very young.

Now, they came out, everyone laughed..and thought they were cute. So, they said they were going to play some metal.

The drummer hit four big strikes on the high hat, and the band went into Flight of Icarus by Maiden.

I ran and picked up my bass...and haven't put it down since ....that was 2006 or so....

thanks kid band! I wish I could remember their name....any one know or remember seeing that ?

Allen aka RokkittBass