what to play over a b9sus4

[Ben Crowell]

I've been playing upright bass for about 6 months, mostly classical and a little jazz. My jazz abilities are extremely limited, so to have a fighting chance, I've been trying some slow ballads, where if all else fails I can play the roots of the chords along with a recording. This is working OK-ish so far.

One of the songs I've been working on is You've Changed, which I'm mainly familiar with through the Billie Holiday recording on Lady in Satin, where she sings with a string orchestra:



The bridge kind of wanders around in the area of the subdominant, and in the second bar, both lead sheets that I've seen have an Ab b9sus4 chord (if the song is in Bb, so the bridge is in Eb-ish). This particular arrangement is very spare at this point, so it's hard to say if that's the harmony they're really implying. I'm having trouble coming up with anything to play here that sounds good. The basic melody is the sus4, so it's probably not effective to double that by playing it in the bass. I guess I should transcribe what notes she's actually singing, and what notes those actually are in the bass (which I can barely hear) and the oboe. But if there's really a b9 in there, then I would think that the root of the chord would be an avoid note. Or if you're playing bass, is it not really true that the root is an avoid note on a b9 chord? Functionally, I don't really see what the chord has to do with the Dm chord that follows it.

Suggestions?

 

[Ben Crowell]

Here's my attempt to transcribe what I hear on the recording.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But if there's really a b9 in there, then I would think that the root of the chord would be an avoid note.

Don't get me wrong but...

 

[mambo4]

I'd prefer to see more of the chart before making a decision
What comes before an after the Ab(b9sus4) will determine "what sounds good"
I looked up You've Changed at jazzstudies.us and couldn't find that chord in the Bb version

This is the bridge in Bb from that site, a very vanilla harmony:

In which bar is the Ab(b9sus4) and the Dmin?

If I were thrown this on short notice I would pedal the Ab an listen until my ears told me what else to play

 

[Ben Crowell]

Thanks, mambo4, that's helpful. The changes in the version I had were:

Ebmaj7 | Ab b9sus4 | Dm | Fm Bb7 |

Ebmaj7 | Ab b9sus4 | Dm C#m | Cm F7 |

My guess would be that the b9sus4 is just someone's attempt to reharmonize it and be more hip.

The version you found is a lot easier to make sense out of in terms of the root motion and functional harmony. It also looks more like what the person who wrote the oboe part on the Holiday recording seems to have had in mind.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'd prefer to see more of the chart before making a decision
What comes before an after the Ab(b9sus4) will determine "what sounds good"
I looked up You've Changed at jazzstudies.us and couldn't find that chord in the Bb version

This is the bridge in Bb from that site, a very vanilla harmony:
View attachment 5073661

In which bar is the Ab(b9sus4) and the Dmin?

If I were thrown this on short notice I would pedal the Ab an listen until my ears told me what else to play

Your provided chord progression fits the bass notes in that section.

With Emaj7, the (double) bass plays (walking) the following notes:
Eb - F - G - Bb (and a pick up note of Bb before jumping back to Eb)

With Ebmin6, the bass plays (something similar):
Eb - F - Gb - Bb, followed by
Bb - Db - Eb - B, etc...

 

[Groove Master]

Here's my attempt to transcribe what I hear on the recording.

View attachment 5072824

From what you transcribed, the A is just a chromatic approach to Bb so it is not a chord tone. For a xmin6 it is common now the play the fourth underneath and creating a x9sus4 or x11 instead. This is what is happening here.

But an Ab7 susb9 is a very cool chord that I would voice it like F#m/Ab but it is just a plain Ebmin6/Ab in this song.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I've had some time to listen to the OP's provided track.
(It's only my amateur bass player opinion/s.)

We can find a few of "clichés" (looking for nowadays) in this arrangement, like the bass half-step descending line in Verse.
Another, frequently heard (nowadays) composition device is that spot that OP had some questions about.
The song is in Bb (major).
In Bridge, the harmony moves into Subdominant "territory" - Eb major (with all those chord "additives" clearly indicating to us - It's JAZZ, not just some pop music.)

(P.S. I've noticed a lot of songs where we have examples of Modal Interchange - temporarily borrowing chords from a parallel tonality.
A big percentage of those modal interchange examples is about the Subdominant Major chord borrowing the subdominant minor chord - in order to move Harmony forward.)


That's what is happening in the OP's provided track.
Our subdominant chord is Eb major followed by the borrowed Eb minor chord (in order to keep Harmony moving.)
N.B. As I've mentioned earlier, the JAZZ-y tune is full of chord "additives;" therefore, it's not just Ebmin but
Ebmin13.


Ebmin13 Chord Structure:
Notes Eb Gb Bb (o) Db F (o) Ab (o) C
Intervals 1 m3 5 (o) b7 9 (o) 11 (o) 13

(o) this note may be omitted from the chord voicing

And, now about the second aspect of the OP's question.

What bass(!) notes to play with the Absus4 (b9) chord?

After decades of playing the bass, I have immediately counter-questions.
What is the tune's tempo?
How long does that chord last?
What is the rhythmic pattern?
What is the arrangement of other instruments, etc., but...

Here is my "cemented" rule number one when encountering any sus4 chords.
If the composer wanted us to hear the chord Absus4 (or Xsus4), the bass player must play the ROOT note first!
N.B. It's not some Classical 4-part/voice Harmony from J.S.Bach.

(The POP music has taught me to learn about "decoupling" of the ACCOMPANIMENT from the MELODY.
As an example of that "decoupling," one could take an overused chord progression and play/sing different Tunes with that cliche chord progression.
Comedians loves those cliches.)

Should you play other than the ROOT note, it's NOT the Xsus4 chord.
I understand that some smart theoreticians could provide a few examples where the bass instrument is playing "something else but ROOT" while the root note is being played by some other instrument like Organ, Piano...

 

[Ben Crowell]

Here is my "cemented" rule number one when encountering any sus4 chords.
If the composer wanted us to hear the chord Absus4 (or Xsus4), the bass player must play the ROOT note first!

But my guess at this point is that the original composer of the song wrote an Eb minor chord there, not an Ab b9sus4.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But my guess at this point is that the original composer of the song wrote an Eb minor chord there, not an Ab b9sus4.

The following recording is the closest to the composer's chord progression/vision.
And it has nothing to do with some re-harmonized Absus4(b9).
(And that's why the bass in your recording is not emphasizing Absus4 but clearly denotes Ebmin while other voices add those extensions leading to the Ebmin13 aural pronunciation.)

The song was first recorded on October 24, 1941 by Harry James & His Orchestra (vocal by Dick Haymes).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I was trying to find any possible chord progression that had that Ab(b9)sus4 written, but to no avail.
Various reharmonized sources had it as Bb9sus4, or Ab9sus4, or Db9sus4; therefore,
let's take a look at that Bb9sus4 chord as if it was heard in the OP's provided video.
As we already know, the correct chord is Ebmin or with all other involved voices -Ebmin13.
The chord notes (all) are:

Eb Gb Bb Db F Ab C.

What are the notes of the Ab9sus4 written in lieu of Ebmin13?

Notes Ab Db Eb Gb Bb

All chord notes from Ab9sus4 are included in Ebmin13.

It means, that if a chordifying instrument plays Ab9sus4 instead of Ebmin13 (with the bass note of Eb) no one would say, "Oops, my bad."

What about that b9 with the sus4 chord?
It's a nice sounding chord!

I was wondering about the notation of that chord.
Maybe, the best expression of that chord would be - Ab7sus4 add(b9) or maybe, just
Ab11sus(b2)?
The simplified way to write it is F#min/G# or Gbmin/Ab.
Ab7sus4 add(b9) - Ab Db Eb Gb Bbb
Ab11sus(b2) - Ab Bbb Eb Gb Bb Db

 

[Malcolm35]

Index (ralphpatt.com) does not have the song in question, however, the link to the Vanilla Book is worth having.

 

[BassChuck]

You might be over thinking it. If the melody is present, like the first time through the song, always make sure your note sounds good against the melody. Think of it as a duet. Most listeners won't get on with the harmony, but the melody and the bass notes are usually easy for them to hear, so make sure they are playing well together
In a jazz setting as the choruses go on and players are improvising, you can't be sure about what note they'll be playing, so be a good band member and let them hear the harmony. That might mean using the other chord tones (besides the root) to make a melody that takes us to the next change.
Last time through, the melody will likely be back and you can construct the line as you did the first time.
So don't sweat the b9's and #5's, make it work with the melody.

 

[Rib 13]

When I see sus4 I usually always think 11 in most situations

Whenever I see b9 I think Lydian from that position

Works for me

 

[Bob_Ross]

Whenever I see b9 I think Lydian from that position

Meaning the Lydian scale starting on the b9 scale degree? (i.e., if you see G7b9 you think Ab Lydian?)

If so...doesn't that only work if it's also a sus4?

 

[Groove Master]

Meaning the Lydian scale starting on the b9 scale degree? (i.e., if you see G7b9 you think Ab Lydian?)

If so...doesn't that only work if it's also a sus4?

It's difficult to look at a susb9 alone because there are some choices that might be better in the the harmonic context. The most important thing is the 13. Usually on a sus4 the thirteen is major so on a G7sus4b9 the E would be part of it like on a regular sus4 ime. So this is where a CMaj harmonic scale can be useful or a Fmin melodic scale with a Bb in it could fit but usually a sus4 would imply a major third in the scale or a resolution to it. To be safe, a F minor 6/9 pentatonic would fit perfectly ;-)

 

[ryco]

R P4 m7 m9 M13 [M3, P5]

 

[albertus]

in both recordings I hear an Eb on bass as the root.
but if you want to take Eb-7 and put an Ab as a reharmonization, you get Ab9sus4
now instead play an Eb-7(b5) and you get the Ab b9sus4
so you can consider playing Ab phrigian as the closest diatonic scale to that sound