what to take away from Autumn Leaves

[txhawaii]

In my continuing jazz studies, I've learned to decently read simple scores and absorbing more and more music theory and whatnot.

In these two versions of Autumn Leaves, one from Sam Jones, and the other from Jared Plane of youtube fame, both vary in their approach but stick to the chords.

Since I have no teacher, what I am supposed to be taking away from learning how to play these two versions?

I get the circle of 4th and understand to some degree the why and what notes are being used in each chord. I see how the notes lead to the next chord but if you asked me to make my own, I don't think I could simply get from cm7 to f7 without just copying what I heard earlier.

what should I be learning from this?

 

[Snarf]

The second example is textbook rule-following. It's using only chord tones. Basic as you can get. If you understand how arpeggios work, there's really nothing much to gain from studying that example. It's actually pretty un-musical.

The first example from Sam Jones shows you a lot more. Chromatic approaches (m1 beat 4), delayed resolution (m2 beats 3+4), using non-chord tones from the scale (m3 beat 3, leading to a scalar approach downward to the next root), great chromatic walkup ideas for minor II-V (m5-6). Etc, etc. Measure 1 has such a great idea that some people forget you can do: repeat the root.

These are tools that you can add to your toolkit. Take some changes from a completely different song, and see if you can apply these principles elsewhere. And write out several of your own choruses so that you can really take time and plan out what you want to do. I think that's a good way of avoiding just playing the same thing you read.

 

[Bob_Ross]

one from Sam Jones, and the other from Jared Plane of youtube fame

Wow, talk about Chalk and Cheese... Just based on ^^^that description I know which one I would be studying more intently

both vary in their approach but stick to the chords.

Look a bit closer at the two transcriptions. See if you can identify when and why they don't "stick to the chords"

Hint: Jared Plane always sticks to the chords...he's literally just arpeggiating them starting on the nearest chord tone to the previous measure. I don't know what he does after that first four measure excerpt you posted, but if he sticks to that formula his bassline is going to get boring in...oh, wait, it already is.

Now look at all the non-chord tones that Sam Jones uses. And look where they fall. Look at how he uses chromatic approach notes to connect chord tones...and look at how infrequently he simply [sic] arpeggiates a chord. I sang through the 16-bar excerpt you posted and I WANT TO HEAR MORE. Jones is engaging the listener's interest by creating a line that isn't 100% predictable while still providing the full rhythmic and harmonic support required of a bassline in this genre.


[edit: iow, what @Snarf said.]

 

[txhawaii]

The second example is textbook rule-following. It's using only chord tones. Basic as you can get. If you understand how arpeggios work, there's really nothing much to gain from studying that example. It's actually pretty un-musical.

The first example from Sam Jones shows you a lot more. Chromatic approaches (m1 beat 4), delayed resolution (m2 beats 3+4), using non-chord tones from the scale (m3 beat 3, leading to a scalar approach downward to the next root), great chromatic walkup ideas for minor II-V (m5-6). Etc, etc. Measure 1 has such a great idea that some people forget you can do: repeat the root.

These are tools that you can add to your toolkit. Take some changes from a completely different song, and see if you can apply these principles elsewhere. And write out several of your own choruses so that you can really take time and plan out what you want to do. I think that's a good way of avoiding just playing the same thing you read.

good points. thank you

 

[txhawaii]

Wow, talk about Chalk and Cheese... Just based on ^^^that description I know which one I would be studying more intently



Look a bit closer at the two transcriptions. See if you can identify when and why they don't "stick to the chords"

Hint: Jared Plane always sticks to the chords...he's literally just arpeggiating them starting on the nearest chord tone to the previous measure. I don't know what he does after that first four measure excerpt you posted, but if he sticks to that formula his bassline is going to get boring in...oh, wait, it already is.

Now look at all the non-chord tones that Sam Jones uses. And look where they fall. Look at how he uses chromatic approach notes to connect chord tones...and look at how infrequently he simply [sic] arpeggiates a chord. I sang through the 16-bar excerpt you posted and I WANT TO HEAR MORE. Jones is engaging the listener's interest by creating a line that isn't 100% predictable while still providing the full rhythmic and harmonic support required of a bassline in this genre.


[edit: iow, what @Snarf said.]

I regret putting JP's name on this as I didn't want this to be a bashing post. But your points are understood. I have learned a lot from some of his youtube posts because I did start at zero and his demonstrations have moved me forward.

Sam Jones's lines are much more musical and after singing them out loud as you did, I do hear the difference.

 

[SLO Surfer]

When reading these I thought that second transcription was just a boring arpeggio exercise. I don’t know who the YouTuber is, but their bass line is very rudimentary and non-musical while Sam Jones’ line is simple, complex, and masterful all at the same time.

The other people have already mentioned lots to take away from Sam’s line, especially his tasty use of non-chord tones and chromatic movement.

 

[mrcbass]

A big picture thing you can take away from your two examples: there's more than one valid way to represent a song.

I agree that studying the chromatic version will give you more useful and advanced knowledge than the basic version. Once you understand why he used the noted he did, it will be easier for you to generate your own version of this (and any other) song.

Understanding that the basic version works just fine is good as well. Sometimes it works better to keep things simple.

Regarding the "getting from Cm7 to F7" comment: This is how most of us learn. We tend to copy - exactly or partly - things we've heard before. After it becomes second nature, you naturally find ways to do it your own way.

 

[logdrum]

Another thing to note is you can break from the quarter note walk by using half notes in some portions and eight noted in some which the the first example does in a few bars (8th notes at least). Ditch the second example unless you are just doing arpeggio exercises and even as an arpeggio exercise that thing does not expand further

 

[ACRock]

Plane's series on walking jazz standards has been very helpful to a lot of bassists like myself. This particular line is intended to just outline the chord tones - Plane literally states "For the first four bars we will just play the chord tones of each chord..." - which would be helpful for someone trying to figure out how to get from Cm7 to F7.

 

[noahw1]

If you want to have your mind blown check out Ron Carter’s book Chartography Chartography - Reinvented Transcriptions
“This Ron Carter book transcribes 5 performances of Autumn Leaves, as played by Miles Davis' Second Quartet, during 1963-1967.

It shows you the original changes and then how they evolved over time. “

It’s astounding for so many reasons - the chords subs, rhythms, and the ears to hear what the other players are doing. Also hearing how they play it different over time. Wow.

 

[BluesWalker]

I regret putting JP's name on this as I didn't want this to be a bashing post. But your points are understood. I have learned a lot from some of his youtube posts because I did start at zero and his demonstrations have moved me forward.

Sam Jones's lines are much more musical and after singing them out loud as you did, I do hear the difference.

JP's YT posts start with the basics, like all Jazz teachers do (Jim Stinnett, Todd Johnson, SBL, etc), to give one a strong foundation. He has some videos that teach more advanced bass lines.

 

[MVE]

There is nothing wrong with arpeggiating the chords.
Its just my opinion, but I think you absolutely should be able to play a piece just arpeggiating the chords before you start to try to make anything more interesting.

 

[sleepingEB0]

I Like when I get some Bill evans sheet music and it’s just chords and whole notes.

not sure why you’re trying to necessarily intellectualize this. Got to just play man.

even watch McCartney in get back and he doesn’t even pretend to jazz but he just goods around makes it work.

can play root note or all harmony or both or broken time

 

[Groove Master]

In my continuing jazz studies, I've learned to decently read simple scores and absorbing more and more music theory and whatnot.

In these two versions of Autumn Leaves, one from Sam Jones, and the other from Jared Plane of youtube fame, both vary in their approach but stick to the chords.

Since I have no teacher, what I am supposed to be taking away from learning how to play these two versions?

I get the circle of 4th and understand to some degree the why and what notes are being used in each chord. I see how the notes lead to the next chord but if you asked me to make my own, I don't think I could simply get from cm7 to f7 without just copying what I heard earlier.

what should I be learning from this?


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If the first transcription is correct what I specifically like is the fact that he plays with the key signature with the 2 flats on the Amin7(b5) and the D7(b9). Most players would play those lines with a whole step at the beginning instead of half-step. This reinforce the tonality big time.

 

[Snarf]

Understanding that the basic version works just fine is good as well. Sometimes it works better to keep things simple.

I would say that the exercise put forth in the second example is not something to aspire to. It's something you should learn and understand, but only as a means to identify and later feel comfortable with the location of chord tones in certain positions. The Sam Jones example is something to aspire to. It's study vs art. If you play example 2 on a gig, it will get you through, but it won't have the feeling that the music should have. To play stylistically correct, you must incorporate the concepts that Sam Jones uses here.

Certainly keeping things simple is often a good or better choice. In this case, though, and in this genre, simplicity should be achieved by thinking rhythm first. When you simplify rhythmically, for example playing a two-feel, that by its very nature is going to reduce what you can do harmonically and nudge you in the direction of roots, thirds, and 5ths and away from everything else.

 

[txhawaii]

Regarding the "getting from Cm7 to F7" comment: This is how most of us learn. We tend to copy - exactly or partly - things we've heard before. After it becomes second nature, you naturally find ways to do it your own way.

thank you for this. I get the 1357 pattern from c to f and the variations in between but I'm still in that confused state and hopefully it will start to unveil itself.

 

[MVE]

If you want to have your mind blown check out Ron Carter’s book Chartography Chartography - Reinvented Transcriptions
“This Ron Carter book transcribes 5 performances of Autumn Leaves, as played by Miles Davis' Second Quartet, during 1963-1967.

It shows you the original changes and then how they evolved over time. “

It’s astounding for so many reasons - the chords subs, rhythms, and the ears to hear what the other players are doing. Also hearing how they play it different over time. Wow.

This idea of evolution of advanced harmony within a group that was often playing 2 shows a night together for years is often overlooked.
Just playing Sam Jones’ bass line along with anyone playing Autumn Leaves probably isn’t going to work. If it was agreed that you are playing the Cannonball version, great. But if you tried to play that note for note along with Eva Cassidy, it would probably be a train wreck.
That’s why it’s important to learn the chords before you, “forget the chords.”

 

[txhawaii]

JP's YT posts start with the basics, like all Jazz teachers do (Jim Stinnett, Todd Johnson, SBL, etc), to give one a strong foundation. He has some videos that teach more advanced bass lines.

@ACRock

i agree that JPs posts are not as simple as my example gives. And I also feel my post degrades him a bit without full content so here's the lesson to Autumn Leaves. Take it as you may...

I never intended to criticize him or his playing.

 

[txhawaii]

This idea of evolution of advanced harmony within a group that was often playing 2 shows a night together for years is often overlooked.
Just playing Sam Jones’ bass line along with anyone playing Autumn Leaves probably isn’t going to work. If it was agreed that you are playing the Cannonball version, great. But if you tried to play that note for note along with Eva Cassidy, it would probably be a train wreck.
That’s why it’s important to learn the chords before you, “forget the chords.”

I'm not sure I understand "forget the chords" comment.

But I do see if you play a standard rock tune, most players will stay close to the original while in the case of jazz, that is never the case.

 

[Snarf]

Just playing Sam Jones’ bass line along with anyone playing Autumn Leaves probably isn’t going to work.

This is incorrect. This bass line doesn't deviate from the core, completely accepted standard harmony at all. If someone calls "Autumn Leaves" at a session or on the band stand, this harmony is what you are going to play, and a line like this, using the principles that it uses, will work every time with everyone. You'll run into problems if you're doing some different arrangement with all 7sus chords, but that's a whole different style of music.